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I don't actually get the opposition for the warlord... or rather the opposition to the concept.
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<blockquote data-quote="El Mahdi" data-source="post: 6757949" data-attributes="member: 59506"><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">A</span></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">ctually, you did. This started off with this post of yours:</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">...w</span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">hich was a direct response to this:</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Not to mention that the larger discussion has from the start, been about the Warlord being in the Core Game - at the least in UA, preferably an official core version usable for AL. If significant aspects of the Warlord aren’t accessible in the Core Game, then all of the Warlord is not in 5E.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">That's good. So understanding that, you understand that the Warlord isn't all there in 5E if one can't actually combine all aspects of the Warlord that are in 5E...right?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">If one can’t actually make and play a Warlord character, that’s not <em>dilution</em>, that’s <em>inaccessibility</em>.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Inaccessible is effectively,<em> not present</em>.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Saying that 4E has excessive bloat is a subjective opinion; not objective fact. </span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">All that matters is that objectively, 5E does not have everything that a 4E Warlord has. </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">For the record though, I am not advocating bringing every aspect of 4E to 5E, or even every 4E aspect of the Warlord to 5E.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I am not a 4E fan; I am a Warlord fan. However, the Warlord is largely defined by 4E.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">The point I'm trying to make in this discussion with you isn't that I want every aspect of 4E translated to 5E (which I don't), but simply that the statement <em>"Every part of the warlord, including inspirational healing, is in 5e."</em> is simply not correct. Saying this also gives Warlord proponents the ammunition to say <em>"See, we don't need a Warlord class." </em>(which also isn't true)</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">No, number 1 was primarily about the DPK not being core, and ancillary concerning multi-classing. Number 3 was exclusively about multi-classing.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Though I'm unsure what this has to do with the subject?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">First off, SCAG does not count. No matter how much you may want it to be, it is not Core. If somebody has to buy an accessory/supplement other than the PHB, it is not Core. I do not have it. I can’t reference it. I won’t reference it. It’s not core, so it’s irrelevant.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">As for aspects 5E is missing:</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><u>Inspirational in-combat recovery of real Hit Points.</u> If WotC wants to put the DPK version of inspirational hit point recovery in Unearthed Arcana, <em>then</em> it’s in the core game. But, as I said before, I expect that the "wiggle room" you and others see in this could very likely disappear as soon as there’s a Sage Advice clarification on it. In which case, such in-combat inspirational recovery is gone for official play (AL), assuming one has actually bought the SCAG supplement in the first place (because again, it’s <em>not </em>core).</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><u>Inducing a Saving throw.</u> Yes, Bardic Inspiration can give a bonus to saving throws, but most effects that characters would be able to use it for – specifically ongoing effects – only allow a save <em>“at the end of the character’s turn.”</em> Bardic Inspiration also can’t help with an immediate save for an immediate effect; unless the Bard’s player was prescient enough to give a pep talk in the last ten minutes. Exploits like <em>Inspiring War Cry</em> induce an immediate Saving throw, just like a real leader giving a sudden cry of warning or exhortation at the moment of danger.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><u>Battlefield manipulation/movement of enemies</u>. All 5E has is <em>Pushing Attack</em> (basically just 3E’s <em>Bull Rush</em>), and a knockdown in the form of <em>Trip Attack</em>. It’s missing things like: <em>Pin the Foe</em> (movement denial), <em>Denying Smite</em> (attack denial), <em>Own the Battlefield</em> (<em><u>tactical</u></em> forced movement), <em>Warlord’s Gambit</em> (baiting an enemy into a trap), and <em>Break the Tempo </em>(tactically intercept an enemy and disrupt their move). </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><u>Coordinate movement between allies.</u> Yes, 5E has maneuvers that let you grant movement to an ally; but it doesn’t have exploits like <em>Guide the Charge</em> or <em>Rabbits and Wolves</em> that grant movement<strong><em> and </em></strong>allow <em>coordination</em> of that movement (simultaneous and tactically).</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><u>Demoralize/Incite enemies.</u> There are no exploits such as <em>Stir the Hornet’s Nest</em> in 5E<em>.</em> While the 4E version just gives an attack and damage bonus, a 5E version should give the enemy disadvantage for being irrationally angry that affects not just combat, but also checks and saves – the real narrative spirit of the exploit. Another one is <em>Force Retreat</em> – which mechanically is just another forced movement exploit, but in 5E should be an enemy Morale check or an actual retreat (not just forced movement of a few squares).</span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">And these are just from the 4E PH1, and only hits the high points. Since I’m being a stickler for <em>Co<em>re</em>, </em>I’ll stick to just that one book to keep it fair.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I also won’t count against your claim, things that could/should be addressed in 5E that aren’t addressed in 4E, such as:</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">-Better/more-appropriate mechanics to represent/model the larger effects of actual Leadership. </span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">-Maneuvers that affect Initiative. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">-A real ability to gain tactical/strategic information (unlike the abysmally weak/virtually useless <em>Know Your Enemy</em>). </span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">-Something that actually reflects being a <em>Student of War</em> (rather than only providing proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools).<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /> </span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">-The ability to affect travel/marching speeds. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">-Command functions for the Mass Battles supplement. </span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">etc...etc...etc...</span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px">The Warlord is far from <em>all there</em> in 5E.</span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="El Mahdi, post: 6757949, member: 59506"] [FONT=Verdana][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] A[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]ctually, you did. This started off with this post of yours: [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]...w[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]hich was a direct response to this:[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]Not to mention that the larger discussion has from the start, been about the Warlord being in the Core Game - at the least in UA, preferably an official core version usable for AL. If significant aspects of the Warlord aren’t accessible in the Core Game, then all of the Warlord is not in 5E.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]That's good. So understanding that, you understand that the Warlord isn't all there in 5E if one can't actually combine all aspects of the Warlord that are in 5E...right? [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]If one can’t actually make and play a Warlord character, that’s not [I]dilution[/I], that’s [I]inaccessibility[/I]. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]Inaccessible is effectively,[I] not present[/I]. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]Saying that 4E has excessive bloat is a subjective opinion; not objective fact. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]All that matters is that objectively, 5E does not have everything that a 4E Warlord has. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]For the record though, I am not advocating bringing every aspect of 4E to 5E, or even every 4E aspect of the Warlord to 5E.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]I am not a 4E fan; I am a Warlord fan. However, the Warlord is largely defined by 4E.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]The point I'm trying to make in this discussion with you isn't that I want every aspect of 4E translated to 5E (which I don't), but simply that the statement [I]"Every part of the warlord, including inspirational healing, is in 5e."[/I] is simply not correct. Saying this also gives Warlord proponents the ammunition to say [I]"See, we don't need a Warlord class." [/I](which also isn't true) [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]No, number 1 was primarily about the DPK not being core, and ancillary concerning multi-classing. Number 3 was exclusively about multi-classing.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]Though I'm unsure what this has to do with the subject? [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]First off, SCAG does not count. No matter how much you may want it to be, it is not Core. If somebody has to buy an accessory/supplement other than the PHB, it is not Core. I do not have it. I can’t reference it. I won’t reference it. It’s not core, so it’s irrelevant.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]As for aspects 5E is missing:[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2][U]Inspirational in-combat recovery of real Hit Points.[/U] If WotC wants to put the DPK version of inspirational hit point recovery in Unearthed Arcana, [I]then[/I] it’s in the core game. But, as I said before, I expect that the "wiggle room" you and others see in this could very likely disappear as soon as there’s a Sage Advice clarification on it. In which case, such in-combat inspirational recovery is gone for official play (AL), assuming one has actually bought the SCAG supplement in the first place (because again, it’s [I]not [/I]core).[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2][U]Inducing a Saving throw.[/U] Yes, Bardic Inspiration can give a bonus to saving throws, but most effects that characters would be able to use it for – specifically ongoing effects – only allow a save [I]“at the end of the character’s turn.”[/I] Bardic Inspiration also can’t help with an immediate save for an immediate effect; unless the Bard’s player was prescient enough to give a pep talk in the last ten minutes. Exploits like [I]Inspiring War Cry[/I] induce an immediate Saving throw, just like a real leader giving a sudden cry of warning or exhortation at the moment of danger.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2][U]Battlefield manipulation/movement of enemies[/U]. All 5E has is [I]Pushing Attack[/I] (basically just 3E’s [I]Bull Rush[/I]), and a knockdown in the form of [I]Trip Attack[/I]. It’s missing things like: [I]Pin the Foe[/I] (movement denial), [I]Denying Smite[/I] (attack denial), [I]Own the Battlefield[/I] ([I][U]tactical[/U][/I] forced movement), [I]Warlord’s Gambit[/I] (baiting an enemy into a trap), and [I]Break the Tempo [/I](tactically intercept an enemy and disrupt their move). [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2][U]Coordinate movement between allies.[/U] Yes, 5E has maneuvers that let you grant movement to an ally; but it doesn’t have exploits like [I]Guide the Charge[/I] or [I]Rabbits and Wolves[/I] that grant movement[B][I] and [/I][/B]allow [I]coordination[/I] of that movement (simultaneous and tactically).[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2][U]Demoralize/Incite enemies.[/U] There are no exploits such as [I]Stir the Hornet’s Nest[/I] in 5E[I].[/I] While the 4E version just gives an attack and damage bonus, a 5E version should give the enemy disadvantage for being irrationally angry that affects not just combat, but also checks and saves – the real narrative spirit of the exploit. Another one is [I]Force Retreat[/I] – which mechanically is just another forced movement exploit, but in 5E should be an enemy Morale check or an actual retreat (not just forced movement of a few squares).[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]And these are just from the 4E PH1, and only hits the high points. Since I’m being a stickler for [I]Co[I]re[/I], [/I]I’ll stick to just that one book to keep it fair.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]I also won’t count against your claim, things that could/should be addressed in 5E that aren’t addressed in 4E, such as: -Better/more-appropriate mechanics to represent/model the larger effects of actual Leadership. -Maneuvers that affect Initiative. -A real ability to gain tactical/strategic information (unlike the abysmally weak/virtually useless [I]Know Your Enemy[/I]). -Something that actually reflects being a [I]Student of War[/I] (rather than only providing proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools).:erm: -The ability to affect travel/marching speeds. -Command functions for the Mass Battles supplement. etc...etc...etc...[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana] [/FONT][FONT=verdana][SIZE=2]The Warlord is far from [I]all there[/I] in 5E.[/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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I don't actually get the opposition for the warlord... or rather the opposition to the concept.
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