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I don't actually get the opposition for the warlord... or rather the opposition to the concept.
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<blockquote data-quote="El Mahdi" data-source="post: 6761009" data-attributes="member: 59506"><p>I disagree on some of your points, but you have some nice ideas in your post also.</p><p></p><p>Going over these threads and the multitude of ideas that have been floated throughout, I've realized some things.</p><p></p><p>One, there are a lot of ideas that are real stinkers.</p><p></p><p>Two, there are some nuggets of pure gold in there also.</p><p></p><p>I really hope WotC is paying attention to these threads. If one pays attention, these discussions are an awesome resource towards a workable 5E Warlord - whatever form it might take. Honestly, it's one reason why mine isn't done yet. These ongoing discussions keep revealing things I hadn't considered, and have continued to evolve and refine my approach to it - but it's definitely getting closer to being finished.</p><p></p><p>More and more, I'm leaning toward the personal opinion that an actual, dedicated Warlord class may not be the answer, but I'm making one anyways. Having the aspects of the Warlord spread out among other classes - <em>diluted</em>, as you've described it - isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as those aspects are accessible in a way that can build the Warlords that people want. (<em>Warlords</em> [plural] because there are many ways to view and play a Warlord.) But, there are those that want an actual, dedicated Warlord class; so I'm making that too.</p><p></p><p>For my games, I'll go with what I call the Warlord Suite (designated below), and probably not use the actual Warlord Class. But the class will be there for those that want it in their games.</p><p></p><p>This is how I'm approaching it currently:</p><p></p><p><em><strong><u>A full Warlord Class.</u></strong></em> - Pretty much a straight port of the 4E class, interpreted into 5E mechanics. That doesn't mean every Power/Exploit, but it does mean making sure to include all the major mechanical/narrative expressions (you were correct that there is a lot of redundancy in the 4E Warlord Exploits).</p><p></p><p>This is about 75% done. What's taking the lion's share of time is writing/converting the maneuvers. Once this is done, the following parts should go quite quickly.</p><p></p><p></p><p><u><em><strong>The Warlord Suite</strong></em></u></p><p></p><p><em><strong><u>Leadership Feats.</u></strong></em> - Rewriting/reinterpreting <em>Inspiring Leader</em> Feat (maybe - I haven't made up my mind on this yet), and writing/adding a <em>Charismatic Leader</em> Feat, a <em>Wise Leader</em> Feat (perhaps named <em>Strategic Leader</em>), and an<em> Intelligent Leader</em> Feat (perhaps named <em>Tactical Leader</em>).</p><p></p><p><em><strong><u>A Revised Battle Master (Fighter Archetype).</u></strong></em> - Rewriting the <em>Rally</em> maneuver (and a few others), and adding maneuvers for the missing Warlord elements.</p><p></p><p><u><strong><em>A Revised Valor Bard.</em></strong></u> - Adding in-combat Inspirational Hit Point Recovery, and adding some tactical/strategic maneuvers.</p><p></p><p><u><em><strong>A new Rogue archetype: The Bravura.</strong></em></u> - A tactical/strategic, and somewhat leader, Rogue archetype. Mechanically, a bit different from the 4E concept; but conceptually and narratively on target (at least I hope so). I'm playing off the root of the name, and taking a little direction from <em>Game of Thrones</em>. The word <em>Bravura</em> means, among other things, highly skilled but flashy - a showy, intricate Master. One of the roots of <em>Bravura</em> is <em>Bravo</em> - a barbarous, thuggish, rogue - an unscrupulous swashbuckler. So, a Bravura is a step above a Swashbuckler - a fencer and master swordsmen, but also steeped in the philosophy and study of tactics and strategy. For me, a perfect example of a Bravura is Syrio Forel - the Waterdancer, First Sword of Braavos that trained Arya Stark and bought her time to escape the Lannisters. It will definitely keep the <em>"high risk, high reward"</em> philosophy of the 4E build.</p><p></p><p><u><em><strong>A new Wizard tradition/Sorcerer origin: The War Mage.</strong></em></u> - A tactical/strategic arcane leader, specializing in spells usable on the battlefield as well as commanding military forces.</p><p></p><p><u><em><strong>A revised War Domain Cleric.</strong></em></u> - Adding in some tactical/strategic and leader elements to the War Domain.</p><p></p><p>And lastly:</p><p></p><p><u><em><strong>Prestige Class: The Consul.</strong></em></u> - Advanced leadership aspects that any class can take (if they meet the prerequisites), but especially add to a Battle Master, Bravura, War Mage or War Priest character. Requires training at some kind of academy/university* or personal tutoring by another Consul (in my campaign world, a modified Forgotten Realms, this takes place at <em>The Pandidakterion of Arrabar</em>). Acquiring the prestige class means sponsorship by and acceptance into the College of Consuls. One benefit of the prestige class is access to the learning institution's libraries/archives, and discourse/advice with/from other members of the College and its leaders/mentors (research, aiding knowledge checks, etc).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this will bring all of the parts of the Warlord into 5E, and fix the accessibility issues, along with enabling the concepts/builds that even 4E wasn't very good at. Some builds would require some multi-classing, but not the Frankenstein approach one would need right now - and it would be multiclassing that makes sense.</p><p></p><p>So, depending on choice of Primary Ability Score/Feat Choice, there will be Inspirational Leaders, Charismatic Leaders, Wise Leaders, and Intelligent Leaders.</p><p></p><p>Then there's class choice:</p><p></p><p>For a straight Martial Warlord - The Battle Master.</p><p>For a Bard Warlord - The Valor Bard.</p><p>For a Rogue Warlord - The Bravura.</p><p>For a Wizard/Sorceror Warlord - The War Mage.</p><p>For a Cleric Warlord - The War Priest.</p><p></p><p>Then the Prestige Version - The Consul.</p><p></p><p>And then:</p><p>-A Barbarian Warlord - multiclass with the Battle Master, or take the Consul Prestige Class.</p><p>-A Paladin Warlord - multiclass with the Battle Master or the War Priest, or take the Consul Prestige Class.-</p><p>-A Druid Warlord - multiclass with the War Priest, or take the Consul Prestige Class.</p><p>-A Monk Warlord - multiclass with the Battle Master, War Priest or War Mage - or take the Consul Prestige Class.</p><p>-A Warlock Warlord - multiclass with the War Mage, War Priest or Battle Master - or take the Consul Prestige Class.</p><p>-An Eldritch Knight Warlord - multiclass with the War Mage, or take the Consul Prestige Class.</p><p>-A Champion Warlord - take the Consul Prestige Class.</p><p>-Or even combinations never seen or heard of before - a Warlock Valor Bard, a Barbarian War Priest...</p><p></p><p>Etc.-Etc.-Etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="El Mahdi, post: 6761009, member: 59506"] I disagree on some of your points, but you have some nice ideas in your post also. Going over these threads and the multitude of ideas that have been floated throughout, I've realized some things. One, there are a lot of ideas that are real stinkers. Two, there are some nuggets of pure gold in there also. I really hope WotC is paying attention to these threads. If one pays attention, these discussions are an awesome resource towards a workable 5E Warlord - whatever form it might take. Honestly, it's one reason why mine isn't done yet. These ongoing discussions keep revealing things I hadn't considered, and have continued to evolve and refine my approach to it - but it's definitely getting closer to being finished. More and more, I'm leaning toward the personal opinion that an actual, dedicated Warlord class may not be the answer, but I'm making one anyways. Having the aspects of the Warlord spread out among other classes - [I]diluted[/I], as you've described it - isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as those aspects are accessible in a way that can build the Warlords that people want. ([I]Warlords[/I] [plural] because there are many ways to view and play a Warlord.) But, there are those that want an actual, dedicated Warlord class; so I'm making that too. For my games, I'll go with what I call the Warlord Suite (designated below), and probably not use the actual Warlord Class. But the class will be there for those that want it in their games. This is how I'm approaching it currently: [I][B][U]A full Warlord Class.[/U][/B][/I] - Pretty much a straight port of the 4E class, interpreted into 5E mechanics. That doesn't mean every Power/Exploit, but it does mean making sure to include all the major mechanical/narrative expressions (you were correct that there is a lot of redundancy in the 4E Warlord Exploits). This is about 75% done. What's taking the lion's share of time is writing/converting the maneuvers. Once this is done, the following parts should go quite quickly. [U][I][B]The Warlord Suite[/B][/I][/U] [I][B][U]Leadership Feats.[/U][/B][/I] - Rewriting/reinterpreting [I]Inspiring Leader[/I] Feat (maybe - I haven't made up my mind on this yet), and writing/adding a [I]Charismatic Leader[/I] Feat, a [I]Wise Leader[/I] Feat (perhaps named [I]Strategic Leader[/I]), and an[I] Intelligent Leader[/I] Feat (perhaps named [I]Tactical Leader[/I]). [I][B][U]A Revised Battle Master (Fighter Archetype).[/U][/B][/I] - Rewriting the [I]Rally[/I] maneuver (and a few others), and adding maneuvers for the missing Warlord elements. [U][B][I]A Revised Valor Bard.[/I][/B][/U] - Adding in-combat Inspirational Hit Point Recovery, and adding some tactical/strategic maneuvers. [U][I][B]A new Rogue archetype: The Bravura.[/B][/I][/U] - A tactical/strategic, and somewhat leader, Rogue archetype. Mechanically, a bit different from the 4E concept; but conceptually and narratively on target (at least I hope so). I'm playing off the root of the name, and taking a little direction from [I]Game of Thrones[/I]. The word [I]Bravura[/I] means, among other things, highly skilled but flashy - a showy, intricate Master. One of the roots of [I]Bravura[/I] is [I]Bravo[/I] - a barbarous, thuggish, rogue - an unscrupulous swashbuckler. So, a Bravura is a step above a Swashbuckler - a fencer and master swordsmen, but also steeped in the philosophy and study of tactics and strategy. For me, a perfect example of a Bravura is Syrio Forel - the Waterdancer, First Sword of Braavos that trained Arya Stark and bought her time to escape the Lannisters. It will definitely keep the [I]"high risk, high reward"[/I] philosophy of the 4E build. [U][I][B]A new Wizard tradition/Sorcerer origin: The War Mage.[/B][/I][/U] - A tactical/strategic arcane leader, specializing in spells usable on the battlefield as well as commanding military forces. [U][I][B]A revised War Domain Cleric.[/B][/I][/U] - Adding in some tactical/strategic and leader elements to the War Domain. And lastly: [U][I][B]Prestige Class: The Consul.[/B][/I][/U] - Advanced leadership aspects that any class can take (if they meet the prerequisites), but especially add to a Battle Master, Bravura, War Mage or War Priest character. Requires training at some kind of academy/university* or personal tutoring by another Consul (in my campaign world, a modified Forgotten Realms, this takes place at [I]The Pandidakterion of Arrabar[/I]). Acquiring the prestige class means sponsorship by and acceptance into the College of Consuls. One benefit of the prestige class is access to the learning institution's libraries/archives, and discourse/advice with/from other members of the College and its leaders/mentors (research, aiding knowledge checks, etc). I think this will bring all of the parts of the Warlord into 5E, and fix the accessibility issues, along with enabling the concepts/builds that even 4E wasn't very good at. Some builds would require some multi-classing, but not the Frankenstein approach one would need right now - and it would be multiclassing that makes sense. So, depending on choice of Primary Ability Score/Feat Choice, there will be Inspirational Leaders, Charismatic Leaders, Wise Leaders, and Intelligent Leaders. Then there's class choice: For a straight Martial Warlord - The Battle Master. For a Bard Warlord - The Valor Bard. For a Rogue Warlord - The Bravura. For a Wizard/Sorceror Warlord - The War Mage. For a Cleric Warlord - The War Priest. Then the Prestige Version - The Consul. And then: -A Barbarian Warlord - multiclass with the Battle Master, or take the Consul Prestige Class. -A Paladin Warlord - multiclass with the Battle Master or the War Priest, or take the Consul Prestige Class.- -A Druid Warlord - multiclass with the War Priest, or take the Consul Prestige Class. -A Monk Warlord - multiclass with the Battle Master, War Priest or War Mage - or take the Consul Prestige Class. -A Warlock Warlord - multiclass with the War Mage, War Priest or Battle Master - or take the Consul Prestige Class. -An Eldritch Knight Warlord - multiclass with the War Mage, or take the Consul Prestige Class. -A Champion Warlord - take the Consul Prestige Class. -Or even combinations never seen or heard of before - a Warlock Valor Bard, a Barbarian War Priest... Etc.-Etc.-Etc. [/QUOTE]
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I don't actually get the opposition for the warlord... or rather the opposition to the concept.
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