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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 1290580" data-attributes="member: 151">Our game (as detailed in the Story Hour) has progressed from 1st level in 2000 up to 22nd level here in 2003.  I can safely say that high-level play can be different, but just as rewarding.  I often find that when someone tells me that high-level play doesn't work, it usually is because it looks scary, not because the person in question has actually played it through.   A quick glance through Sepulchrave's story hour, PirateCat's story hour and mine will show you how high-level divinations are not the ultimate mystery solvers that they first appear to be.  Especially against foes who are prepared to deal with such issues.  In many cases, high-level divination spells, for example, are only as useful as the questions you know to ask.  It's taken my players ten levels to determine that Fraz Urb'Luu, Demon Prince of Deception, has been messing with them.  Things like Teleport spells and other transportation magic changes the nature of the locales, but still has plenty of limitations.  Weight and distance limitations are often a major problem, too.  If you send your players through the adventure path modules, they will, around 10th level, obtain a Helm of Teleportation.  That gives them 3 teleports a day.  Trust me, the world doesn't end.  Especially when incautious players turn certain items, abilities and spells into crutches.  When they loose them, things get unpleasant. If combats are running slowly at high levels, my experience has usually shown that this is due to the players and DM being overwhelmed by options, as much as anything else.  When twenty-five spells are in operation across a group, it's a lot of work.  But this is a function of play even at lower levels.  There are plenty of ways to change this and there have been quite a few threads dedicated to that topic already. By the same token, mystery plots are almost always targeted as being an example of why high-level play doesn't work.  There have been discussion of this, too, and I'm not going to repeat my lengthy discussion of that topic in any real length here...other than to point out that the mystery can work, if it's sufficiently constructed, and that more importantly learn from Piratecat: knowing who commited the murder and being able to do something about it are two entirely different things.  A quick review of the Eversink portion of Piratecat's story hour can show how having solved the mystery isn't the same as having brought the perpetrator to justice, and even then, it isn't always clear that you've found the right guy.  Notice how PC even turns the party's own divining power against them, by some clever use of player expectations and some clever villian thinking. However, the most important thing you have to face with respect to high-level play is that it is not the same as 1st-10th.  Things are different.  The players are no longer threatened by an orcish horde or a swarm of zombies.  In a recent game of mine, the players slaughtered a Githyanki invasion force of 250 regular Githyanki, 15 half-dragon Gith, 4 Cr 16 spellcasters, 2 CR 16 Gith Blackguards and red dragon mounts, 2 CR 19 half-dragon Astral Dreadnaughts and four CR 20 undead Githyanki horrors.  They went on to cut a swath through the Lich Queen's palace and eventually put her down once and for all.  That doesn't mean they don't fear another Githyanki invasion....because they can't be everywhere at once, and the rest of the world is still composed of folks who are threatened by them.  Sure, the paladin is level 20....but his sister is an Aristocrat 2, and most of her subjects are Commoner 1s or Expert 1s.  It's not much good to be able to kill the whole Githyanki race, if they take half of the people you've ever known with you, first. Plus, high-level play expands the playing field.  As players rise to prominence, they attract the attention of powerful beings, both local and extraplanar.  They discover there are still beings out in the world who can threaten them, and that they are now on a bigger playing field.  At 1st level, you fight an orc in Iuz's army.  At 10th level, you fight a member of the Lesser Boneheart, sent by Iuz with a squad of advanced orcs.  At 20th level, you may encounter Iuz himself, or some members of the Greater Boneheart leading one of Iuz's armies.  That style of play isn't for everyone, and you need to decide if you want to go that route. Another thing to consider is that there is a world of difference between playing your way up the ladder from low-level to high-level, as opposed to deciding to create a character at 15th, 20th or 25th levels.  In theory, they may seem the same, but in practice, you make many sub-optimal decisions along the way, because they make sense for the character or at that particular point in time.   I can't tell you if you'd enjoy high-level play or not.  What I can tell you is that the depth of play doesn't change, unless you let it.  And players earn those high-level abilities, and it's only fair to let them flex those muscles.  Most players that I know enjoy flipping through the DMG and looking at the magic items and thinking "Oooohhh...sure wish I had one of those!" at some point.  Those same players hear about fighting high-powered monsters and wonder what it would be like to face an advanced half-fire elemental paragon beholder, the Lich-Queen of the Githyanki, St. Kargoth the Death Knight or an advanced Psionic Roper of Legend.  And that's not going to happen at low-level. I do have some complaints about certain aspects of high-level play, but they're not the ones more commonly cited as problems with it.</blockquote>

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