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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zad" data-source="post: 1291592" data-attributes="member: 90">I just can't resist the urge to chime in. First off, understand this isn't a slam or an admonishment in any way, but if you haven't actually done high level play, then you need to actually do it before you worry too much about it. Wizardru said it, Piratecat said it, and it's true. It's one thing to read about it and think about what it might be like, and another thing entirely to actually play it. Second, regarding teleportation - it's not that big a deal and I'm having a hard time seeing why anyone is worried about it. When you're low level, the journey is half the adventure. Roaming bandits, goblin attacks, whatever - it adds flavor and makes it interesting. But by the time you're high level, there is absolutely nothing you're going to meet on the road that is any threat, so why bother fussing over the details of the trip? It is, as we have dubbed it thanks to Wulf, a torch-lighting issue. In other words it's a detail that adds no fun or flavor to the gameplay, and is therefore not worth worrying about. Remember - the objective is to have fun. If we spend 30 minutes discussing the minute details of our travel to a place we go frequently as a high level party, then it's probably not fun. Add to this the fact that in high level play you usually need to cover more geography and the effect is magnified. In short, travel magic lets you skip over uninteresting parts and get to the rich and flavorful parts of the game, whatever that may be for your group. Divination is in the same category. And the cited DM's know this perfectly well - there are ways to avoid divinations spilling the beans. But let me give you something from the player's point of view: We don't use divinations much. Why? Because they all seem to suffer from one fatal flaw: you have to know what you want to know. You need a specific question, often a yes/no question, to get meaningful information. And you can never find out what you really really want to know: why? It always comes back to why in plot elements and that's hard to find with divinations. That doesn't even begin to address the means, magical and mundane, that BBEGs can use to foil such things. Let's go back to the original question: he doesn't "get" high level D&D. I disagree that D&D is different - every game system I've been in has player advancement as a primary element and this is no different. But if you don't get it, I really think the answer is to try it. And I don't suggest whipping up 15th level characters - start down low and work your way up.  Heck everyone was initially freaked out about the transition into epic levels and while yes, it's a little different, it's not like you wake up one day and the world is turned upside down. It's a gradual progression, just like going from 10th to 15th to 20th was. If you listen to nothing else, go back and read what Pcat and Wizardru said, and then go read story hours of successful high level campaigns - high level play can be rich and rewarding and is not nearly as scary as many people think.  If you want story references (most have already been mentioned but here's a list with specifics). There are more such as (contact) but I am not as familiar with them. Sepulchrave's (actually in a series of different posts so you'll have to hunt a little): Gives a fantastic example of how to take PC's from movers on a localized scale up to world- and plane-shaking forces. Incredibly rich story rife with moral dilemma. Piratecat's: a first stop for anyone trying to see how to take a group from low powered to very high powered, and how to keep a high level group challenged and motivated. They have all the tricks at their disposal and they use them, and it doesn't break anything. Wizardru's: Disclaimer - yeah I play in it and I write the damn thing too. Start with a group at level 1 and over the course of a few years take them into epic levels. Plot threads cross all over the place, and divination magic is nearly useless not because it's frustrated but because the plots are so complicated that the players don't know what to ask. Six fully developed, rich characters progress in their lives each with their own motivations and subplots and get to use their hard earned powers rather than feel nullified.  There are quality DM's on these boards with experience who are willing to share and they've done it a lot - all anyone has to do is listen.</blockquote>

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