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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
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<blockquote data-quote="Gaerek" data-source="post: 5697469" data-attributes="member: 73666"><p>In the end, it's just a game. There's no sense getting worked up about it. I have a feeling, in the end, this is just a case of, "Let's agree to disagree." It's also why I'll refuse to respond to anyone who decides to take this out of the realm of civil discussion, and into the realm of the childish, the insulting, or anything beyond what this is...a discussion about a game.</p><p></p><p>I actually agree with you here. I even mentioned in my post that I'm willing to accept the oddities of the system, for the sake of fun. Does it throw off the narrative? Yep, sure does. But for me, it's better than the option. And I think this is where we may disagree.</p><p></p><p>Again, I do agree with you here. Simulationist games are rarely fun for most people. Extremely "gamist" games usually start off pretty fun, but it tapers off quickly. The best would be somewhere in the middle. I would also argue that the point of having some realism, or roots in realism, or whatever you want to call it, is done, simply because those aspects make it fun, exciting, and interesting. A players character I was DMing for died a couple months ago. He told me, "Man, it's no fun dying." I asked him how much fun he'd have if there was no threat of death. He thought for a moment and said, "The game would be f'ing boring." That's a perfect example of what I'm saying here, and I think you would agree as well. But again, for me, Healing surges fix a serious (in my eyes) flaw with previous editions. </p><p></p><p>Hell, back in the mid-90's we were so sick of the whole healer bot/healer stick problem with 2e, we made a bunch of house rules to help us not have to worry so much about having a cleric in a group or at least the requirement for a cleric to memorize tons of heals. The first thing we did was use the 3e cleric spells system (before it was even published). Clerics didn't have to mem heals. The next thing we did (and I forget what we called it) was allow each character to heal half their HP every couple hours with some restrictions (I don't remember exactly how we did this, there were some limits). We ran clericless 2e games without any issues. There were times heals would have been nice, but they were far from needed. Especially the second rule, these were very gamist, but they allowed us to have more fun with the game, so we were willing to suspend disbelief to make it happen.</p><p></p><p>In other words, it's fun to imagine we're in these situations, and the closer to real life the system is, the more opportunity there is for fun. I do agree.</p><p></p><p>It's funny how much I actually do agree with you. The difference here being, I personally believe (with the exception of the obvious) that Healing Surges make things more realistic. In medieval style combat (like D&D) in reality, you either survived, or you were dead. If you took more than minor wounds, you were likely dead. The healing surge represents the idea of "licking your wounds" or "walking it off" or "rubbin' some dirt on it" or the burst of adrenaline (which are all very real "ideas") you get sometimes. When I played football in high school, I played both offense and defence. I got tired, I got bruised, scraped, cut, etc because I was on the field for 40 out of 60 minutes. Every 10 minutes or so, I'd get rotated out for about 5 minutes. That 5 minutes was enough to rest myself up and be almost at 100% again by the time I hit the field. That's the kind of thing the healing surge is meant to represent. The name they chose for it was bad because it immediately got people thinking, "Oh, characters can heal themselves now??" when that's not exactly what's going on. And I was the same way when I heard that term, and it immediately through me off. Only through playing the system, and understanding exactly what it was trying to do did I change my mind about it. To me, it was an improvement.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can understand why you feel this way. For me, the benefits of HS outweigh the drawbacks. For you, they do not. And that's perfectly fine! If you invited me to come to a Pathfinder, or 2e or 3e or whatever game, I'd be like, "Date and time? I'll be there!" I just want to play. I prefer 4e, but really, in the grand scheme of things, these are minor issues.</p><p></p><p>I think this is a very viable idea. I always thought Gary Gygax's description of what HP represent was kinda half-assed. However, I couldn't think of anything better without getting into the ridiculous, so I accepted it. If 5e is around the corner, I would be totally ok with this type of a system. For now, I'm find with healing surges.</p><p></p><p>That comment about not being ok with HS means not being ok with D&D was tongue-in-cheek. I tend to throw a little hyperbole around to help make a point. My point was simply there's a lot of abstracting in these types of games. D&D is, and has always been, one of the more gamist games out there. Pathfinder, being essentially an extension of 3.5e D&D falls in that category too. For me, it's not much to extend a little more suspension of disbelief to healing surges, for the sake of fun.</p><p></p><p>And please don't get me wrong. I don't think healing surges are the end all, be all cure. I personally believe they work well at what they do. If a new system comes out that replaces them, as long as it's not a regression back to what we had before, I'll welcome it with open arms.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gaerek, post: 5697469, member: 73666"] In the end, it's just a game. There's no sense getting worked up about it. I have a feeling, in the end, this is just a case of, "Let's agree to disagree." It's also why I'll refuse to respond to anyone who decides to take this out of the realm of civil discussion, and into the realm of the childish, the insulting, or anything beyond what this is...a discussion about a game. I actually agree with you here. I even mentioned in my post that I'm willing to accept the oddities of the system, for the sake of fun. Does it throw off the narrative? Yep, sure does. But for me, it's better than the option. And I think this is where we may disagree. Again, I do agree with you here. Simulationist games are rarely fun for most people. Extremely "gamist" games usually start off pretty fun, but it tapers off quickly. The best would be somewhere in the middle. I would also argue that the point of having some realism, or roots in realism, or whatever you want to call it, is done, simply because those aspects make it fun, exciting, and interesting. A players character I was DMing for died a couple months ago. He told me, "Man, it's no fun dying." I asked him how much fun he'd have if there was no threat of death. He thought for a moment and said, "The game would be f'ing boring." That's a perfect example of what I'm saying here, and I think you would agree as well. But again, for me, Healing surges fix a serious (in my eyes) flaw with previous editions. Hell, back in the mid-90's we were so sick of the whole healer bot/healer stick problem with 2e, we made a bunch of house rules to help us not have to worry so much about having a cleric in a group or at least the requirement for a cleric to memorize tons of heals. The first thing we did was use the 3e cleric spells system (before it was even published). Clerics didn't have to mem heals. The next thing we did (and I forget what we called it) was allow each character to heal half their HP every couple hours with some restrictions (I don't remember exactly how we did this, there were some limits). We ran clericless 2e games without any issues. There were times heals would have been nice, but they were far from needed. Especially the second rule, these were very gamist, but they allowed us to have more fun with the game, so we were willing to suspend disbelief to make it happen. In other words, it's fun to imagine we're in these situations, and the closer to real life the system is, the more opportunity there is for fun. I do agree. It's funny how much I actually do agree with you. The difference here being, I personally believe (with the exception of the obvious) that Healing Surges make things more realistic. In medieval style combat (like D&D) in reality, you either survived, or you were dead. If you took more than minor wounds, you were likely dead. The healing surge represents the idea of "licking your wounds" or "walking it off" or "rubbin' some dirt on it" or the burst of adrenaline (which are all very real "ideas") you get sometimes. When I played football in high school, I played both offense and defence. I got tired, I got bruised, scraped, cut, etc because I was on the field for 40 out of 60 minutes. Every 10 minutes or so, I'd get rotated out for about 5 minutes. That 5 minutes was enough to rest myself up and be almost at 100% again by the time I hit the field. That's the kind of thing the healing surge is meant to represent. The name they chose for it was bad because it immediately got people thinking, "Oh, characters can heal themselves now??" when that's not exactly what's going on. And I was the same way when I heard that term, and it immediately through me off. Only through playing the system, and understanding exactly what it was trying to do did I change my mind about it. To me, it was an improvement. I can understand why you feel this way. For me, the benefits of HS outweigh the drawbacks. For you, they do not. And that's perfectly fine! If you invited me to come to a Pathfinder, or 2e or 3e or whatever game, I'd be like, "Date and time? I'll be there!" I just want to play. I prefer 4e, but really, in the grand scheme of things, these are minor issues. I think this is a very viable idea. I always thought Gary Gygax's description of what HP represent was kinda half-assed. However, I couldn't think of anything better without getting into the ridiculous, so I accepted it. If 5e is around the corner, I would be totally ok with this type of a system. For now, I'm find with healing surges. That comment about not being ok with HS means not being ok with D&D was tongue-in-cheek. I tend to throw a little hyperbole around to help make a point. My point was simply there's a lot of abstracting in these types of games. D&D is, and has always been, one of the more gamist games out there. Pathfinder, being essentially an extension of 3.5e D&D falls in that category too. For me, it's not much to extend a little more suspension of disbelief to healing surges, for the sake of fun. And please don't get me wrong. I don't think healing surges are the end all, be all cure. I personally believe they work well at what they do. If a new system comes out that replaces them, as long as it's not a regression back to what we had before, I'll welcome it with open arms. [/QUOTE]
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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
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