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I don't get the dislike of healing surges
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<blockquote data-quote="Gaerek" data-source="post: 5699426" data-attributes="member: 73666"><p>I guess I can see it that was as well. It's funny, because I used that exact quote from the 3e PHB in, oh, around 2001 to show someone that HP were abstract, and not just a bucket of meat. If you are ok seeing HP in that way, then that's fine, if it works for you. But, I think that you start running into some very interesting (and immersion rending) problems. For example: How come a level-0 commoner can only take 1 sword hit, but the level 15 fighter can take several? If you put me (level 0 commoner) side by side with a Navy SEAL (say, level 15 fighter?) and shot us both, we would likely have the same fate. But according to "bucket of meat" HP, that Navy SEAL should be able to take a dozen or more shots before falling. That's just one of the problems.</p><p></p><p>Interesting idea. I'm sure there's a few people that would like that, but I know it wouldn't be for me, lol. I'm one of the masochists that used to raid Plane of Fear in Everquest, before all the corpse summoners and resurrection bots...</p><p></p><p>If you're not sure what I'm talking about, let's just say there was a very real possibility of losing your corpse (and all of your gear) and having it disappear with all your gear if you wiped and couldn't get another raid up there to rescue. Almost happened once. I had to skip classes that day or risk missing a chance at getting back to my corpse. Was a bad day I never wanted to repeat, lol.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Understandable. I think the way we used to balance encounters was that lower level combat tended to not be as draining. But at higher levels, all bets were off. That was my experience through about a dozen different groups I've played with in my 20 years.</p><p></p><p>Again, interesting. But it's similar to what I do. The players, whether they know it or not call the shots. Though, I have the opposite problem. If I give them more RP style encounters, or non-combat encounters...they will turn them into combat encounters, heh.</p><p></p><p>I think there's a general misunderstanding of healing surges. The name tends to evoke the idea that a player can heal themselves. And, to an extent, that's true. In combat, every player gets a second wind. This can be used as a standard action (meaning, you can basically only move this turn), once per encounter, that allows you to use a healing surge. A healing surge heals 25% of your HP (rounded down). In general, this is the only way a player can use a healing surge in combat. Abilities and healing potions do not heal directly, they allow the use of healing surges (in most cases, there are exceptions). A potion of healing allows a character to burn a healing surge in exchange for 10hp. A cleric can use healing word (twice per encounter) to allow a character to use a healing surge. A cleric can also choose Cure XXXX Wounds that heals back HP without a healing surge, but it's a daily spell, and the cleric would have had to take it in place of another daily. So in essense, a healing surge is a limitation on the amount of healing a player can receive in a day (after an extended rest, or 8 hours, they get all healing surges back). I think of it more like endurance. When you're out of surges, you're exhausted, and you need to rest. You simply cannot continue.</p><p></p><p>Most people are mostly ok (with some exceptions, not going into them here, as they've been discussed on this thread already) with that mechanic. What gets a lot of people is that between combats, during a short rest (5 minute break) a character can use as many surges as they want to heal themself up. So now, they're ready for the next fight, with no downtime. Anyway, that's how the mechanic works, basically, so if that's what you thought, then you understand. If not, well, now you do. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Ahh, ok. Makes more sense now. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I understand where you're coming from now. In context of D&D in general, it doesn't make much sense. But in the game you've created, well, that's the game you and your group want to play, and more power to you. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>That's the grittyness you enjoy. For me, balance is a pretty important factor in the game.</p><p></p><p>In my eyes, a generic, one size fits all system would be fairly boring. Even if your game supports the way my group wants to play, I'd rather play 4e since it will excell at what we want. Whereas in your system, it might be possible, but it's more of a jack of all trades, master of none. BUT, the benefit is, of course, being able to do whatever you want, and have the system support that. 4e supports a lot of options, but many things are pretty non-negotiable.</p><p></p><p>I can see that. Again, my thoughts follow the more heroic, cinematic feel. Whereas in your system, the journey is what's important, in 4e, the destination seems to be where it's at.</p><p></p><p>I still have my reservations with Monte on the team, but what I've seen so far, he has some pretty good ideas, and I know i'll be following his L&L column. I have a feeling that column will give a good prediction of what to expect with 5e.</p><p></p><p>I never understood the hate between the so-called grognards and the 4e fanboys. We're all gamers, but we all have our own preferences and opinions. I can't tell you that the way you play is wrong, because that's how you like to play. I may not like it, but that doesn't matter, at all. Have fun at your game today. Looking forward to my next!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gaerek, post: 5699426, member: 73666"] I guess I can see it that was as well. It's funny, because I used that exact quote from the 3e PHB in, oh, around 2001 to show someone that HP were abstract, and not just a bucket of meat. If you are ok seeing HP in that way, then that's fine, if it works for you. But, I think that you start running into some very interesting (and immersion rending) problems. For example: How come a level-0 commoner can only take 1 sword hit, but the level 15 fighter can take several? If you put me (level 0 commoner) side by side with a Navy SEAL (say, level 15 fighter?) and shot us both, we would likely have the same fate. But according to "bucket of meat" HP, that Navy SEAL should be able to take a dozen or more shots before falling. That's just one of the problems. Interesting idea. I'm sure there's a few people that would like that, but I know it wouldn't be for me, lol. I'm one of the masochists that used to raid Plane of Fear in Everquest, before all the corpse summoners and resurrection bots... If you're not sure what I'm talking about, let's just say there was a very real possibility of losing your corpse (and all of your gear) and having it disappear with all your gear if you wiped and couldn't get another raid up there to rescue. Almost happened once. I had to skip classes that day or risk missing a chance at getting back to my corpse. Was a bad day I never wanted to repeat, lol. Understandable. I think the way we used to balance encounters was that lower level combat tended to not be as draining. But at higher levels, all bets were off. That was my experience through about a dozen different groups I've played with in my 20 years. Again, interesting. But it's similar to what I do. The players, whether they know it or not call the shots. Though, I have the opposite problem. If I give them more RP style encounters, or non-combat encounters...they will turn them into combat encounters, heh. I think there's a general misunderstanding of healing surges. The name tends to evoke the idea that a player can heal themselves. And, to an extent, that's true. In combat, every player gets a second wind. This can be used as a standard action (meaning, you can basically only move this turn), once per encounter, that allows you to use a healing surge. A healing surge heals 25% of your HP (rounded down). In general, this is the only way a player can use a healing surge in combat. Abilities and healing potions do not heal directly, they allow the use of healing surges (in most cases, there are exceptions). A potion of healing allows a character to burn a healing surge in exchange for 10hp. A cleric can use healing word (twice per encounter) to allow a character to use a healing surge. A cleric can also choose Cure XXXX Wounds that heals back HP without a healing surge, but it's a daily spell, and the cleric would have had to take it in place of another daily. So in essense, a healing surge is a limitation on the amount of healing a player can receive in a day (after an extended rest, or 8 hours, they get all healing surges back). I think of it more like endurance. When you're out of surges, you're exhausted, and you need to rest. You simply cannot continue. Most people are mostly ok (with some exceptions, not going into them here, as they've been discussed on this thread already) with that mechanic. What gets a lot of people is that between combats, during a short rest (5 minute break) a character can use as many surges as they want to heal themself up. So now, they're ready for the next fight, with no downtime. Anyway, that's how the mechanic works, basically, so if that's what you thought, then you understand. If not, well, now you do. :) Ahh, ok. Makes more sense now. :) I understand where you're coming from now. In context of D&D in general, it doesn't make much sense. But in the game you've created, well, that's the game you and your group want to play, and more power to you. :) That's the grittyness you enjoy. For me, balance is a pretty important factor in the game. In my eyes, a generic, one size fits all system would be fairly boring. Even if your game supports the way my group wants to play, I'd rather play 4e since it will excell at what we want. Whereas in your system, it might be possible, but it's more of a jack of all trades, master of none. BUT, the benefit is, of course, being able to do whatever you want, and have the system support that. 4e supports a lot of options, but many things are pretty non-negotiable. I can see that. Again, my thoughts follow the more heroic, cinematic feel. Whereas in your system, the journey is what's important, in 4e, the destination seems to be where it's at. I still have my reservations with Monte on the team, but what I've seen so far, he has some pretty good ideas, and I know i'll be following his L&L column. I have a feeling that column will give a good prediction of what to expect with 5e. I never understood the hate between the so-called grognards and the 4e fanboys. We're all gamers, but we all have our own preferences and opinions. I can't tell you that the way you play is wrong, because that's how you like to play. I may not like it, but that doesn't matter, at all. Have fun at your game today. Looking forward to my next! [/QUOTE]
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