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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5718329" data-attributes="member: 957">I don't see that as remotely equivalent.A giant's club has different dice than a goblin's short sword.&nbsp; And those dice are informed by the intrinsic narrative qualities of the giant as opposed to the goblin.&nbsp; Allowing a random range of outcomes within that narrative definition does nothing to undo the fact that it is still soundly based on the narrative concept.In the same manner the fighter's chance to hit the ogre is defined by the narrative concept of the fighter and the ogre.&nbsp; And the narrative concept of a 14th level fighter is distinctly different than the narrative concept of a 1st level fighter.&nbsp; That the 14th level fighter MIGHT miss and the 1st level fighter MIGHT hit are not details that need to be predetermined.&nbsp; It is that the chance of these happenings are acceptable to the players that is important and the differences in the chances are appropriate to the narrative instructions.The idea that a fighter may never receive a wound that requires medical aid is a mechanical dictate that resides outside the range of narrative expectations.&nbsp; In my games the ranges of the possible are defined by the narrative*, the mechanics just decide where.&nbsp; Surges trump narrative in defining the range of possibilities.&nbsp; (And this is not the only place in 4E in which this happens)* - I don't challenge the notion that you can present elements of 3E that don't do a great job of meeting my standard.&nbsp; But I avoid or houserule those elements and I'm always open to better ideas.&nbsp; If surges WERE the only issue like this in 4E AND they were less fundamental to the system, I'd just as happily play 4E and house rule them out.&nbsp; But, this thread is about dislike of surges, so saying that I'd would play 4E without surges in that alternate universe really changes nothing I've said in this thread.also interestingly:I've got no argument for your choice of terms in this context.But it is interesting to note that my point has been that 4E FAILS, to me, in meeting the &quot;cinematic&quot; standard.&nbsp; And several surge defenders have told me that &quot;of course it doesn't&quot;, because fiction has different needs and expectations that it would be bad form for D&amp;D to consider trying to match.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5718329, member: 957"] I don't see that as remotely equivalent. A giant's club has different dice than a goblin's short sword. And those dice are informed by the intrinsic narrative qualities of the giant as opposed to the goblin. Allowing a random range of outcomes within that narrative definition does nothing to undo the fact that it is still soundly based on the narrative concept. In the same manner the fighter's chance to hit the ogre is defined by the narrative concept of the fighter and the ogre. And the narrative concept of a 14th level fighter is distinctly different than the narrative concept of a 1st level fighter. That the 14th level fighter MIGHT miss and the 1st level fighter MIGHT hit are not details that need to be predetermined. It is that the chance of these happenings are acceptable to the players that is important and the differences in the chances are appropriate to the narrative instructions. The idea that a fighter may never receive a wound that requires medical aid is a mechanical dictate that resides outside the range of narrative expectations. In my games the ranges of the possible are defined by the narrative*, the mechanics just decide where. Surges trump narrative in defining the range of possibilities. (And this is not the only place in 4E in which this happens) * - I don't challenge the notion that you can present elements of 3E that don't do a great job of meeting my standard. But I avoid or houserule those elements and I'm always open to better ideas. If surges WERE the only issue like this in 4E AND they were less fundamental to the system, I'd just as happily play 4E and house rule them out. But, this thread is about dislike of surges, so saying that I'd would play 4E without surges in that alternate universe really changes nothing I've said in this thread. also interestingly: I've got no argument for your choice of terms in this context. But it is interesting to note that my point has been that 4E FAILS, to me, in meeting the "cinematic" standard. And several surge defenders have told me that "of course it doesn't", because fiction has different needs and expectations that it would be bad form for D&D to consider trying to match. [/QUOTE]

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