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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5724427" data-attributes="member: 957">Ok, so the point here is, you and I are having such radically different experiences that we can't really comment on each other.  And, that doesn't contradict my position but it DOES contradict yours.Ok, I won't claim you are an "outlier" here.  But this is not a case where one or the other of us must be an outlier.  I've played with enough groups to know that I'm also not an outlier.  But I'll also readily agree that I don't know the minds of the people I've gamed with.  It could even be that some people at the same table have different perceptions.But I'll give you one telling example. When 3E came out I had recently changed jobs.  A new co-worker of mine and a long time gamer friend of his joined my first 3E game.   After a few months both of them came to me to express just how much they were enjoying the game and both made comments specifically saying that my D&D games were completely unlike any other game that they had ever played in.  And they described in terms that made it clear that they were talking about exactly this point.  The depth and richness of being *IN* the story was new to them and they loved it.What does that anecdote show?  Well, it proves there are people out there with your experience.  It still surprises me after all this time to hear that you are one of them.  But, it is not news to me that they are out there.  And it also demonstrates that those people can discover more and go "holy crap, that's awesome!"  It doesn't say anything about proportions or "outliers", but it allows that BOTH can be true.  Hell, it demonstrates that to some finite amount both ARE true.See, that's the classic "confusing personal preference for objective truth" thing.You statement would be true if you had said "It just doesn't really have THIS issue for the way Hussar plays"I know you have seen me say numerous times before that I find 3E does 4E style VASTLY better than 4E does 3E style.  It now seems clear that for all that time you were playing 3E, you were playing in what I would now call "4E style".  Which is cool.  I've got no debate with that whatsoever.  Play what, and how, you like.  That is one of the reasons I've said WotC can't just crank out 5E and put this genie back in the bottle.  They use to have 3E fans playing both "3E style" and "4E style".  Now they have lost a lot of "3E style fans".  But while 3E did "4E style" well, 4E does "4E style" excellent.  So those two groups will not easily go back together.  The genie is flying free now.This point also brings to my mind the debate we had some months ago regarding online play.  I was saying that I enjoyed online play but there were aspects of face to face play that I'd never seen captured by online.  You said (as I recall, please correct me as needed) that you agreed there were pluses and minuses to online, but that the fundamental quality of the experience was unchanged.  We never agreed on that.  But , in this light, I can see how that would be true.  Take out the sense of depth and a lot of what online is missing melts away. So you do not experience it.  I don't dispute that.  I do find it a bit of a shame, but if you are having a blast then that is all that matters.  So now we are done to the point of: Do you REALLY reject my claims?  Are you incapable of accepting the idea that I'm telling the truth."4E just doesn't really have THIS issue." - for Hussar's style.4E has this issue TERMINALLY for Bryon's style.Can you accept that?</blockquote>

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