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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5724684" data-attributes="member: 957">Sorry to re-quote, I've been guilty of that a few times lately.&nbsp; But I just had a &quot;wait a minute&quot; moment.I know that the whole &quot;4E is WoW&quot; and &quot;4E is a board game&quot; debate is touchy, but...I enjoy WoW (well, I used to until I quit a couple years ago) and I enjoy fantasy board games with a dash of RPG (Descent, etc).&nbsp; But if you asked me what the one real differences is between those and RPGs, it would absolutely be the immersion.&nbsp; The &quot;in a novel&quot; model is what takes these things to a whole new realm.&nbsp; (no pun intended)If you were to take that away then, to me, ANY RPG would instantly become JUST WoW or JUST a board game.&nbsp; So the connection there in my mind is actually quite strengthened by this line of reasoning.But the connection is NOT to say that 4E = Wow or 4E = a boardgame.&nbsp; I still don't buy that because if I WERE to play 4E, I'd be focusing on the things that make it different.&nbsp; And, of course, I just have to deal with the short comings.&nbsp; But when someone says those shortcoming don't exist to them and that they saw 3E as no different, then suddenly it seems to me that their experience for BOTH 3E and 4E was a hell of a lot like what I consider to be the experience of WoW.&nbsp; Now, just as I don't experience D&amp;D the same, I have no reason to claim that these people experience WoW the same.&nbsp; But if Peter's D&amp;D experience is insignificantly different than Paul's WoW experience, then it is completely reasonable for Paul to describe Peter's D&amp;D experience as being &quot;just like WoW&quot; upon having it described to him.This also fits into the whole &quot;too much work&quot; argument.&nbsp; &nbsp; As you know, I've continuously challenged that idea because I love spending time prepping for game.&nbsp; It is vastly fun and I never get the idea of &quot;work&quot;.&nbsp; But that &quot;fun&quot; comes entirely from seeing that immersive world growing and being detailed, like a painting appearing on a blank sheet.&nbsp; If it were not for that massively enjoyable aspect of it, I would find it completely not worthwhile.&nbsp; It is a night and day difference.&nbsp; I'd never consider doing that for my &quot;WoW-style&quot; experience.You have, without a doubt, caused me to revise my assessment.&nbsp; In the end this comes back to the same point I've made many times before.&nbsp; Specifically: We are playing such radically different experiences that it is pointless to try to compare them.&nbsp; But even that point appears to have been grossly understated.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5724684, member: 957"] Sorry to re-quote, I've been guilty of that a few times lately. But I just had a "wait a minute" moment. I know that the whole "4E is WoW" and "4E is a board game" debate is touchy, but... I enjoy WoW (well, I used to until I quit a couple years ago) and I enjoy fantasy board games with a dash of RPG (Descent, etc). But if you asked me what the one real differences is between those and RPGs, it would absolutely be the immersion. The "in a novel" model is what takes these things to a whole new realm. (no pun intended) If you were to take that away then, to me, ANY RPG would instantly become JUST WoW or JUST a board game. So the connection there in my mind is actually quite strengthened by this line of reasoning. But the connection is NOT to say that 4E = Wow or 4E = a boardgame. I still don't buy that because if I WERE to play 4E, I'd be focusing on the things that make it different. And, of course, I just have to deal with the short comings. But when someone says those shortcoming don't exist to them and that they saw 3E as no different, then suddenly it seems to me that their experience for BOTH 3E and 4E was a hell of a lot like what I consider to be the experience of WoW. Now, just as I don't experience D&D the same, I have no reason to claim that these people experience WoW the same. But if Peter's D&D experience is insignificantly different than Paul's WoW experience, then it is completely reasonable for Paul to describe Peter's D&D experience as being "just like WoW" upon having it described to him. This also fits into the whole "too much work" argument. As you know, I've continuously challenged that idea because I love spending time prepping for game. It is vastly fun and I never get the idea of "work". But that "fun" comes entirely from seeing that immersive world growing and being detailed, like a painting appearing on a blank sheet. If it were not for that massively enjoyable aspect of it, I would find it completely not worthwhile. It is a night and day difference. I'd never consider doing that for my "WoW-style" experience. You have, without a doubt, caused me to revise my assessment. In the end this comes back to the same point I've made many times before. Specifically: We are playing such radically different experiences that it is pointless to try to compare them. But even that point appears to have been grossly understated. [/QUOTE]

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