NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5728131" data-attributes="member: 22779">This is why I find these discussions so difficult.  I mean, 4th level cleric with 7 HP.  Ok.  Now, how in the world is that anywhere near average?  A cleric, even in B/E get's d6 or d8 hp? I forget which.  But, either way, 4d6 averages to 14 hp and 4d8 averages to 20.  So, your lethality has a lot more to do with the fact that your characters are runnign around with HALF their average hp.  Heck, even your fighter is significantly below average.  So, how does that show anything?  Yup, if your characters are running extremely bad luck, they die more often.  Well, that's 100% true I suppose.OTOH, if we actually wanted to talk averages, 3ed characters up to 10th level have pretty much the same average hp (maybe slightly higher since they start at max hp at 1st level) as their AD&D counterparts.  After 10th?  Sure, no problem.  3e characters get a lot more hp.OTOH, the monsters average FOUR TIMES more damage.  Do 3e characters have 4 times more hit points on average?  And, let's not forget to actually compare apples to apples and the presumed 25 point buy character.  Now, you've got maybe a 12, 14 Con, for +2 per HD.  My 3e character on average has maybe 20-30 more HP by 10th level.  Given that CR 10 creatures in 3e can deal out over 100 points of damage in a single round (something that NOTHING besides unique monsters can do in AD&D) I'm thinking that 3e characters are really not more durable.I'll stand by the idea that it's the SoD stuff that makes AD&D more lethal.  Combat damage?  Small potatoes.----------Just a point about discussing game presumptions.  I'm not, in any way, denying that Az (sp) or DannyA had the experiences they had.  I totally believe both of them.  I do think that what they claimed happened in their games really happened.What I'm trying to drill down to is howWhenever this topic comes up, it can generally get pinned down to a combination of one or more of the following three elements:1.  Houserules.  And, in here I'd include rule misinterpretations too.  2.  Design choices by the DM.  If the DM, in 3e, is using mostly classes humanoids, for example, then all the encounters are going to be on the weaker end of the CR scale.  While the mechanics say a 5th level monk is a CR 5 encounter, I'm going to say it's not as dangerous as a Troll.  There are loads of other ways the choices of the DM can facilitate specific playstyles.3.  Strength of the PC's.  Point buy value is a good measure of this and I know I've harped on it a few times.  When you have PC's that are running in the mid 30's (or higher) for their point buy value, they act at least a level higher than what it says on their character sheet.  An entire group of this can really make a large difference, particularly up to about 10th or 12 level.  Also, let's not forget group size which includes the PC's, NPC's, pets, helpers, and various other hangers on.  This can also radically change how the group operates.And, generally, these three elements do pin down most of the reasons why a specific group might have experiences which are different from the game assumptions.  Look at discussions of 1e for extreme examples of all three.</blockquote>

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