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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Runestar" data-source="post: 4398850" data-attributes="member: 72317">I still find theory optimization fun. What's not to like about pushing the boundaries of the existing rules and seeing how far you can stretch them? It is not as if I will be allowing a fighter who can manage 6000+ attacks/round in my 3e game anytime soon, but being involved in such discussions is still a blast. In the very least, it has helped improved my understanding of the rules. People who claim that optimizers are inherent powergamers don't seem to realize that such theoretical optimization are basically just that - fun with the RAW. Typically, a player can be categorized into 1 of 4 groupings.1) Lousy roleplaying, can't design an effective build to save his life.2) Adequate/good roleplayer, but does not make an effort to optimize (be it intentional or otherwise).3) Can manage effective builds, but poor roleplaying skills.4) Able to mesh good character builds and stellar roleplaying into a harmonious whole. From what I have gleemed in my short time here, most members seem to belong to group 2 (or at least, they seem to take pride from claiming to belong to group 2). My point is basically that of the stormwind fallacy - you can be in (4), roleplaying and optimization are not mutually exclusive. It is an ideal I feel that is worth attempting to strive towards, not shun it and remain in your own comfort zone, much as it may suffice for you.What is not to like about finding a way of marrying the 2 into one harmonious whole? It ends up being a win-win situation. You get the dual satisfaction of playing a deep, immersive character, and an effective one who is able to excel at all the tasks you want him to be capable in.Let me give you a 3e example (note: this is not an edition war, but my experience with 4e is still fairly limited, so I am using a 3e scenario I am more familiar with in the hopes of better expressing my point across).[sblock=Example<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" />A long while back I went to the Character Optimization board with a build request, and I ended up with a character build with eight classes -- two base, six prestige. My request wasn't for the most power available short of Pun-Pun, or to heavily focus on one thing so as to be unbeatable in that area, nor was I just looking for the most multiclassed build possible. My request was more along the lines of "My werebear barbarian PC and his redeemed succubus wife have children, how can I assemble a character that demonstrates the capabilities of that mixed heritage, for when the kids grow up into playable characters?" After a lot of discussion a build was worked out: Bard 4/Barbarian 1/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Rage Mage 2/Bear Warrior 1/Sublime Chord 1/Eldritch Knight 9. This grants BAB +17/+12/+7/+2, Charisma-based spontaneous casting of a small number of level 1-9 spells on the bard and sorcerer/wizard spell lists, a limited ability to ignore arcane spell failure, limited bardic knowlege, rage, the ability to cast spells while raging, and the ability to transform into a bear while raging, as well as some other minor abilities that aren't so important.You might look at that class combination and cringe, thinking "What an overcomplicated, unfocused, dipped mess of a class collection." I look at it and think "This is Rachel Lovato, an energetic and outgoing young woman who's a capable warrior. She can draw on the bestial strength passed down from her father David, the compelling presence and magical talents of Seneca her mother, and the fiery temper she inherited from both. She prefers to get by with her cunning and charm, but she's a bit of a tomboy and likes a good brawl more than is proper for a lady. She hasn't seen as much of the multiverse as her parents, but she learned a little about everything from the stories they told her as a child, and it serves Rachel well in her own adventures." (I also think that from a raw power perspective, a single-classed Druid 20 would defeat Rachel easily.)[/sblock]This is one aspect I find weird about this forum. For most part, the members here come across as quite likable and rational. But make any mention about optimization, and suddenly, they start descending on you like some angry lynch mob as though I am advocating that they become munchkins and break their own games or something.No. Optimization is simply letting your character be the best he can be, within the limits set by your own campaign. There is nothing dirty about the O word. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /></blockquote>

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