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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GregoryOatmeal" data-source="post: 5691545" data-attributes="member: 6667661">This is a good point and possibly foreshadows that any "definitive" or enduring version of D&D probably, sadly, won't have the D&D logo. If such a game ever gets momentum. Also the game won't have beholders, sigh.So I imagine their is a large market of people who like dragons, LOTR, Harry Potter, video games, or even acting, talking in funny voices, and improvising. They just don't have that gamer gene - which is incredible patience and willingness to learn D&D. They're kept away from D&D because they see really big complex rulebooks. They've heard horror stories about people with brothers that own 20 hardcover books. Or they've heard gamers complaining about how they memorized all the 2E stuff and then they went and made it all totally obsolete. Or they were the type that was "with it" until it changed, the scene flipped and they just gave up. They tell acquaintances and D&D gets tagged as this game for ultra-nerds with huge amounts of time and a unique patience for learning extremely complicated games.Just think what the thirty hardcover books on someones shelf conveys to someone who doesn't understand how they're all optional supplements. I have to memorize all that? That's like ten-thousand pages of rules. Most games come with books that are 10 pages - that's a thousand times more rules. That gamer can't explain to their non-gaming coworker why their game occupies shelves full of rules. But if that gamer tells the non-gamer "yeah, it sucks, all of those books are obsolete. You have to buy new books" that'll make an impression. That's the kind of talk that scares people away from gaming.D&D is daunting, and the number of editions you see just makes it exponentially more difficult for a non-gamer to think they'll ever get it. So between the borderline gamers and the former gamers who gave up with edition changes, I think there's a larger market of people that are kept away from the game by the perception that it's unstable, ridiculously complex, and constantly revamped entirely. If a gamer knows the rules he memorized fifteen years ago will still be in print and played he's more likely to make the large commitment to entering the hobby. That's not the case - I've known a lot of people that dropped out of the hobby for this reason.And you can always sell supplements and adventures and rules books and D20-modern/Gamma World 4E-type spin-offs to a larger audience. For example you could have a stable base game and an arcana-book with more advanced rules for healing surges, will defenses, etc. Take it or leave it. This would be a less divisive implementation of some of the 3E/4E innovations.So a stable base game would improve D&D's image, cause less people to drop out and more people to give it a try. I know that's hard to demonstrate.Ya know, not to be rude but I find this pretty dismissive and lacking of empathy for all the people that don't come to these forums and have huge collections of indie-RPGs. You may have a steady group group that will play just about anything. I like to introduce non-gamers or former gamers to the hobby so I'm just trying to keep it simple.I'm a guy with three shelves of RPG books and a $600 miniature collection I carry around in the biggest fishing tackle box I could find. So we're both huge gaming nerds. I have a lot of friends with great D&D memories but they haven't bought a book since I convinced them to buy 2E/3.0. I don't get to visit them much since they live so far away. When I do I'm always trying to get them to try 4E or C&C or 3.5 since I have resources for those - and it's just hard to get them to try to learn new rules. Because of time and money. And they loved D&D and they have lots of time. It's hard to get them to play D&D but it's awesome when it happens. Please don't be dismissive of those folks. They're like us, they like the same things, and it's hard to get them into games for legitimate reasons. You come off as pretty condescending for people that are probably a lot like yourself but just may not have the time and patience for so many game systems.</blockquote>

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