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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6375857" data-attributes="member: 6778044">That would be definitionS of hide, and I think that is part of the problem folks are having. Because the rules are addressing several different types of hiding.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">One is being unseen (like hiding behind a tree). Everybody else knows (or at least think they know) where you are. Your location is known (and there are several statements in the rules about hiding about whether your location is known or not) but you are unseen. If you come out from behind the tree, they aren't surprised because that's where they expected you to be.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Another is the scenario where you attempt to sneak into a room where nobody knows you are even there. I would consider this undetected.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Becoming unseen and then successfully sneaking to a new location means that you are no longer just unseen, but also that your position is unknown.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Note also that even though the rules say being hidden is 'unseen and unheard' that doesn't address the issue that several creatures have bonuses to detect you by scent.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The rules state in several places that under certain circumstances your position is given away, and therefore you are no longer hidden. That doesn't mean that you may not still be unseen.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Of course, you can be 'unseen and unheard' but still not be hidden because your opponent succeeds on their perception check.</li> </ul>So I would agree that the way the rules are written can be somewhat confusing. Part of this is the language used, and part of it is the fact that they are actually describing several different but related states. But when you think them through, they make sense.Randy</blockquote>

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