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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felon" data-source="post: 682789" data-attributes="member: 8158">Betcha I didn't <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Which effectively changes the way those monsters work, assuming we're using the word "work" in the same sense that Staffan was using it.Oh, come on. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /> There are plenty of stories out there about vampires (and other characters with a monstrous/cursed nature) emancipating themselves from their masters and overcoming the obstacles that relegate the majority of their kind to spending their existence lurking in the muck as a minion. Nothing new here.Yes, making a template into a class presents a special challenge, although it isn't as insurmountable as you and Staffan portray it to be. My initial post was essentially expressing disappointment that SS didn't provide any tools for taking on that challenge. As for not gaining HD, BAB, or saves, you do in fact receive the latter two based on the creature type that the character becomes (in this case, undead), although they are inappropriate for a vampire. The lack of HD is more of a problem because without that to combine with the ECL to determine the total amount of levels, you have to make an educated guess. So you make an estimation, and put it on paper to see if it works out, and if it passes muster you playtest it. This is what I expect WotC to for me in a book like SS, but if I've gotta do it myself, then fine. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> Why did they certainly not want to do that? They have the space and the tools to do it here, which didn't have in the MM, and they don't have to re-write a darn thing; it doesn't break the game to say "here's another way to do it". Making the vampire (or most templates for that matter) into a class that gradually gains abilities is far from an impossible task. There are prestige classess (Fang of Lolth, Dragon Disciple) that essentially are exactly that: templates applied over the course of character levels. Why not present a template such as Vampire in the same manner as a PrC? It's definitely a more balanced approach than just slapping on an ECL. If you're still worried about the whole "serving a master" issue, you can establish prerequisites that cover emancipation. The bottom line here is, I haven't heard anything yet that makes the idea of a vampire monster class impossible to do. Why be so quick to insist something won't work?LOL. Well, they did present ghouls, mummies, and shadows as playable PC's. That's certainly a big step in a more open-minded direction for them.</blockquote>

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