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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4334497" data-attributes="member: 35909">So you're saying the rules of the game itself have to paternalistically (I may have invented a word) protect us from these abusive gamers/DMs?  Even though the 4E DMG says right inside of it (and several seem to like putting in their sigs) that everyone at the table is responsible for the fun of the game?  Is that about right?Look, I've played in my share of BAD games.  Like one of my first 3E games.  DM knew almost nothing, and liked saying yes.  We used 3.5 rules, but 3.0 items (since they were cheaper and more powerful).  He thought gauntlets of strength +2 added +2 to your strength bonus.  He allowed one guy to make a half dragon / half celestial / half troll, which only took real damage from fire and acid, which he was conveniently immune to.  He used his starting wealth to get a ring of three wishes.  His first wish was Half-Dragon without the LA cost (granted), his second wish was for a type IV bag of holding completely loaded with platinum pieces (granted).  I think his other wish was for wings, cause the templates didn't qualify him for it or something (granted).  He then allowed him to spend all his gold as if towns were magic supermarkets, with no caps on bonuses.  The guy was a sorcerer with a strength in the high 30's. It was his dump stat.  My archer had a cha of 18, and the DM claimed that with a score that "low," he was ugly.  The troll guy's brother went on to also make a caster, and upon hitting epic, created a spell to transmute anything to platinum, and reverse it.  He made a fortune flooding the market with platinum, then turning it back to the (now depleted) material he had used to create it all, wildly swaying the economy back and forth till it broke completely.  Again, the DM allowed this, no problems.  The troll player, meanwhile, went for some nice templates like Monster of Legend and became an Abomination. These epic level hi-jinks I only heard about, cause I died at level 17, before even acting, on the surprise round.  See, our party was so strong, the DM was already tossing epic monsters at us, and I unfortunately failed a save against one of the monster's Implosion SLA's (there was a swarm of them, in hiding).  I quit the game, heard how the DM got frustrated and tried to have the entire pantheon attack the party (and the gods lost), and just declared the entire universe as destroyed, ending the game.  I decided, "yeah...this isn't the game for me."Why did I post that overly long story?  Because it took me almost a year away from the game after those horrors to realize the simple truth.  The game itself was fine, it was the people abusing and/or breaking the rules that make games go awful.  The game may allow you to do some crazy, powerful things.  But it's still a world.  There's still authorities to answer to.  People who want to live and will band together against you if they feel forced to.  Gods watching from other planes, who'd rather kill a potential threat before it grows to serious than leave it alone.  And above all else, a DM who's supposed to have the rationality to maintain the game.  Some groups might like a whacky, rules-loose game, others might want a very harsh, gritty, roll-as-it-falls style, but in any case, the system doesn't (or at least shouldn't) tell you where in those options the style should fall.  It's up to the group to decide, and the DM to steward.Hence, I can't help but shake my head at all the people complaining about Clerics who "kick arse" after 5 rounds of pre-combat buffing, or the 15 minute workday.  Nowhere in the 3E rules does it tell the DM he has to allow the players to pull that crap.  And it also never states he's obligated to never let them pull such things off.  Sometimes a one combat day, where the casters can just spell dump as they please can be fun.  If it isn't for your group...don't allow it?  It's pretty sad when people need the books to DM for them.</blockquote>

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