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<blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 2374938" data-attributes="member: 704">The complexity is in the number of variables.Any complaints about the math are unfounded.&nbsp; Anyone of us is capable of adding +1 or +2.The probelm is that we have a slew of modifiers from many sources that may or may not stack, combined with modifiers that are purely situational.&nbsp; Keeping track of all the variables becomes very cumbersome.&nbsp; It becomes moreso when you have mixed opponents that are affected by different modifiers.This results in having to setup near algerbraic equations for every combat encounter.&nbsp; Expressing it as near pseudo code:for each player;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; for each attack option player can make;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for each enemy;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; determine attack to-hit;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; determine attack damage;for each enemy&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; for each attack option enemy can make;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for each player;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; determine attack to-hit;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; determine attack damage;And for determining attack to hit and damage, you have something that looks like this.To Hit = Bab + SB + WB + RM + Buff + SM + SA;Dmg = Multiplier x (Base Dice roll + SB + WB + Buff + SM + SA) + SneakAtk;AC = Armour + Dex + Dodge + SM + Buff + SA;Where:Bab = base attack bonusSB = Stat bonusesWB = Weapon BonusesRM = Range Modifier &lt;ranged weapon only&gt;SM = Situational Modifier &lt;higher ground, charge, suprise&gt;SA = Special abiilities, such as class abilitiesMultiplier = Critical or lance charge multiplierAny sane DM and player pre-calculates most of this, leaving only things that change round to round, such as range modifier, situational modifiers, and the use of special abilities and buff / anti- buff spells that dont come up too often, like chill touch.The only part where this really breaks down is when you have crap like a sword with +2, +5 vs Evil, of Wounding.&nbsp; That weapon alone has a to hit modifier that may not always apply to every opponent to hit, and a damage modifier that wont affect a slightly different subset of opponents.&nbsp; It is very possible to come up with a fight with 3 opponents that the weapon affects differently.The only way to avoid these problems is to quietly cut out the parts of the game that add complexity you do not see as necessary, and not giving out magic items that add too much work, not using combat options that you cannot resolve quickly (typically bull rush, grapple, and trip, and any other action that has more then 2 or 3 potential variables) and not using enemies that do the same.The complaint about complexity is a valid one I am afraid.&nbsp; But I think that in practice it is largly mitigated by the fact that people dont seem to use many of the rules that annoy them.&nbsp; Have any of you had a bull strenghed, and blessed player performing a bull rush down hill into a waist deep river against an enlarged giant alligator while hobgoblin heavy crossbow specialists where shooting at him from 2 range increments away in a late evening battle under heavy fog?Can you name all of the situational modifiers involved without checking a rule book?Hell, I like that question, and will drop it into the rules forum...END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lord Zardoz, post: 2374938, member: 704"] [b]The complexity is in the number of variables.[/b] Any complaints about the math are unfounded. Anyone of us is capable of adding +1 or +2. The probelm is that we have a slew of modifiers from many sources that may or may not stack, combined with modifiers that are purely situational. Keeping track of all the variables becomes very cumbersome. It becomes moreso when you have mixed opponents that are affected by different modifiers. This results in having to setup near algerbraic equations for every combat encounter. Expressing it as near pseudo code: for each player; for each attack option player can make; for each enemy; determine attack to-hit; determine attack damage; for each enemy for each attack option enemy can make; for each player; determine attack to-hit; determine attack damage; And for determining attack to hit and damage, you have something that looks like this. To Hit = Bab + SB + WB + RM + Buff + SM + SA; Dmg = Multiplier x (Base Dice roll + SB + WB + Buff + SM + SA) + SneakAtk; AC = Armour + Dex + Dodge + SM + Buff + SA; Where: Bab = base attack bonus SB = Stat bonuses WB = Weapon Bonuses RM = Range Modifier <ranged weapon only> SM = Situational Modifier <higher ground, charge, suprise> SA = Special abiilities, such as class abilities Multiplier = Critical or lance charge multiplier Any sane DM and player pre-calculates most of this, leaving only things that change round to round, such as range modifier, situational modifiers, and the use of special abilities and buff / anti- buff spells that dont come up too often, like chill touch. The only part where this really breaks down is when you have crap like a sword with +2, +5 vs Evil, of Wounding. That weapon alone has a to hit modifier that may not always apply to every opponent to hit, and a damage modifier that wont affect a slightly different subset of opponents. It is very possible to come up with a fight with 3 opponents that the weapon affects differently. The only way to avoid these problems is to quietly cut out the parts of the game that add complexity you do not see as necessary, and not giving out magic items that add too much work, not using combat options that you cannot resolve quickly (typically bull rush, grapple, and trip, and any other action that has more then 2 or 3 potential variables) and not using enemies that do the same. The complaint about complexity is a valid one I am afraid. But I think that in practice it is largly mitigated by the fact that people dont seem to use many of the rules that annoy them. Have any of you had a bull strenghed, and blessed player performing a bull rush down hill into a waist deep river against an enlarged giant alligator while hobgoblin heavy crossbow specialists where shooting at him from 2 range increments away in a late evening battle under heavy fog? Can you name all of the situational modifiers involved without checking a rule book? Hell, I like that question, and will drop it into the rules forum... END COMMUNICATION [/QUOTE]

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