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<blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 2381909" data-attributes="member: 1363">First off, Quas, have you ever played the game above 12th level?&nbsp; A DC25 (as you point out down below, as one of the highest in the game) is a joke for any PC of this level to make.&nbsp; The average bonuses range around 15 (base) + 3 - 6 for stat and if it's of any relevance there will almost certainly be a +5 to +15 from an item.&nbsp; I DM'd a game this weekend and a 14th level character had a +17 base hide, +4 from race, +10 from an item, +7 from stat, +2 from feat = that's a +40 to his hide check.&nbsp; &nbsp; This is an extreme case, but fairly representative of the challenge.I think my example above indicates the relevance of including all modifiers when determining ways to challenge a high level party.&nbsp; Your tone with this comment is unprofessional, and uncalled for.&nbsp; My players (one group who has played together for over 20 years, and one group who ranges in age from teens to mid 30's, are most certainly not &quot;pissy&quot; players.&nbsp; I recognize that their opinions may diverge from yours, but please seek first to understand why their opinions differ, then to be understood.&nbsp; This can be done in a dialogue, while maintaining professional behavior.Frankly, as I've said several times on this thread.&nbsp; I appreciate that opinion.&nbsp; If you'd like to start a different thread about WHY D&amp;D shouldn't ever change, I would encourage you to do so.&nbsp; I started this thread with the intent of looking at the game, based on my and other's experiences, that there were some opportunities for improvment.&nbsp; I appreciate a good dialogue, challenging our ideas, and causing us to see things from a different perspective.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you don't feel like you're adding constructively to the discussion, please refrain.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ashockney, post: 2381909, member: 1363"] First off, Quas, have you ever played the game above 12th level? A DC25 (as you point out down below, as one of the highest in the game) is a joke for any PC of this level to make. The average bonuses range around 15 (base) + 3 - 6 for stat and if it's of any relevance there will almost certainly be a +5 to +15 from an item. I DM'd a game this weekend and a 14th level character had a +17 base hide, +4 from race, +10 from an item, +7 from stat, +2 from feat = that's a +40 to his hide check. This is an extreme case, but fairly representative of the challenge. I think my example above indicates the relevance of including all modifiers when determining ways to challenge a high level party. Your tone with this comment is unprofessional, and uncalled for. My players (one group who has played together for over 20 years, and one group who ranges in age from teens to mid 30's, are most certainly not "pissy" players. I recognize that their opinions may diverge from yours, but please seek first to understand why their opinions differ, then to be understood. This can be done in a dialogue, while maintaining professional behavior. Frankly, as I've said several times on this thread. I appreciate that opinion. If you'd like to start a different thread about WHY D&D shouldn't ever change, I would encourage you to do so. I started this thread with the intent of looking at the game, based on my and other's experiences, that there were some opportunities for improvment. I appreciate a good dialogue, challenging our ideas, and causing us to see things from a different perspective. If you don't feel like you're adding constructively to the discussion, please refrain. [/QUOTE]

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