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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JackSmithIV" data-source="post: 4579378" data-attributes="member: 74901">Or your DM. Seems like we've found the problem, really. Your example of how mystery-games is the give-away here. If your games are like that, then they're not really mysteries. Or your DM just doesn't know how to run a good mystery game. This doesn't mean he's a bad DM, it just means he's not the kind of DM who's cut out for running mystery-based games.See, the biggest mistake you can make when running a game with mystery elements is minimalism. When I run a mystery, I turn the dial up on description, narration, characters, details, everything. Mysteries require quite a bit of immersion. Minimalism only leads to the game feeling obvious. Then, when this is realized, the DM tries to fix it with mindless red herrings or simply withholding information.Think of any mystery movie or book you've ever read. They thrive in details. The goal of a mystery isn't to come up with the right answer, it's to find the right answer in a sea of clues and details. Mysteries require alot of fleshing out. They also require huge commitment to narration from the DM. Also, most DMs design mysteries so that there's only one way of reaching the conclusion, so players spend all they're time just trying each door until they find the correct one.Mysteries need to serve the players in the efforts and their imaginations. Many DMs craft one right path, and then a bunch of wrong ones, leave out what they'd call "fluffy" details, and then see what the players do. This will inevitably lead to frustration. The DM should create an exciting cast of characters, seriously consider their personalities and motivations, and constantly give the players details about the environments, actions, and details of the game world. Red Herrings should change the circumstances of the mystery, not lead the players to frustrating dead ends.I'm just rambling, really, but let me provide a few examples of what I mean:Bad Mystery:The players enter a casino to find someone with ties to a mob boss. The DM says that the casino is full, and describes three particular characters (two red herrings (RHs))that the DM has obviously planned for the characters to talk to. The characters spend an hour of game time talking to the first two RHs. It leads to nothing fruitful or interesting. The third is the obvious tie-in, and the DM says something to the effects of (after an hour of scripted RP) "He tells you where to go to find the mob boss".Good Mystery:The players enter the same casino for the same reason. The DM describes the casino, how it smells, how the people look, the look of the waiters, how the characters feel... he describes the room in parts, casually mentioning the three characters in the example above mixed in with a cast of other colorful characters. The players can choose to approach anyone or do anything they like. If they engage the first RH at any point, they might not find anything out about the mobster, but the RH might be linked anyway, and warn the mobster, leading to encounters with his goonies later. The second RH doens't know anything at all about the mobster, but might be hooked up with the casino performers, a few of which are under the mobsters payroll (if the players decide to make new friends). The third character, a high-stakes gambler, is shooting craps. The DM describes the game being played in detail, so the players can get a feel for the type of character and the attention he draws. The description of his crass and chovenistic demeanor might clue the players into the kind of lurid things the gambler is into, which might help the players appeal to the gambler in a way that might get them the information they want...So there you go. It seems like your games are played in the first manner, "The Bad Mystery". The second type may look more cliche, but with a little bit of true effort on part of the DM a mystery can be incredibly rewarding. It just takes energy, skill, and the will to make it a truely great and interesting thing.</blockquote>

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