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I Have 8 20th Level Characters -- Now What?
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<blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 2508874" data-attributes="member: 326"><p>Hey Aluvial! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well you can read my review of the Epic Level Handbook here:</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.immortalshandbook.com/review2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.immortalshandbook.com/review2.htm</a></p><p></p><p>As S'mon noted, 'complexity increases over time'. The main problem with epic gaming is that setting it up and running it can be more time consuming than lower level gaming. PCs and NPCs and monsters will have more feats, more spells, more magic items - generally more options, and that means more prep work for the DM (unless they are running published material). So you could say that epic gaming is not as DM (or game designer) friendly.</p><p></p><p>Yet while most of the design isn't great, the only 'broken' element is Challenge Ratings/Encounter Level.</p><p></p><p>My solution for this is published with Grim Tales, by Bad Axe Games.</p><p></p><p>Other areas we can change for the better include:</p><p></p><p>1.1. Spellcasting. </p><p></p><p>Spellcasting after 20th-level (and by that I mean using Improved Spell Capacity) is SO badly designed its ridiculous. Its not only a complete nightmare to have to work out, but it also makes lower level spells virtually redundant.</p><p></p><p>I posted my solution to this here:</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm" target="_blank">http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm</a></p><p></p><p>1.2. Epic Spellcasting.</p><p></p><p>For me, aspects of the design of epic spellcasting are @ss-backwards. The design forces you to create a spell you can't cast, and then, through mitigating factors whittle the spell down to a point where you can cast it. Its like WotC saying "We want you to count up to 500 and then count back down to 100."</p><p></p><p>Also the epic spells simply don't give a good bang for their buck. They are underpowered (compared to spells elevated through metamagic) and not worthy of the GP costs attached.</p><p></p><p>I'll have my solution for this in the Immortals Handbook: Grimoire. </p><p></p><p>2. Skills.</p><p></p><p>At epic levels, having to calculate skill points is a chore. Skills really take a back seat to feats, items and spells by this point. So in many ways they are an unnecessary chore as well.</p><p></p><p>My solution is to marginalise skills, initially by giving epic characters max. ranks in all known skills and subsequently giving them the opportunity to become omnicompetant (divine ability), so that they know all skills. A characters max skill ranks would be equal to its HD/Level + skill point modifier. This way, classes such as rogues still retain their advantage (multiclass uses primary class, or best if two or more classes are equal).</p><p></p><p>3. Feats.</p><p></p><p>Feats are one of the mainstays of 3rd Edition. But I think this is an area where DMs could use a leg up, so to speak, with lots of character examples. </p><p></p><p>Also, so that people never run out of feats, allow epic characters to choose Divine Abilities, by expending 5 feat slots provided they meet the prerequisites (this works better using my divine abilities rather than the Salient Divine Abilities in D&Dg which have a lot of unnecessary prereqs.).</p><p></p><p>4. Magic Items.</p><p></p><p>I have rules in which characters would carry a small number of 'artifacts' (likely only four), instead of dozens of magic items. These would then 'evolve' with the character (similar to Weapons of Legacy of a fashion). Obviously the artifacts would be 'pound for pound' (slightly) more powerful, and to some extent multi-faceted, though not ridiculously so (think along the lines of the Sword of Kas in the DMG as an example of something you might be carrying at around 30th-level). </p><p></p><p>5. Combat.</p><p></p><p>Some people are disenchanted with epic combat; either "its simply the same as low level combat but with bigger numbers - whats epic about that?", or "we are always hitting monster X or never hitting monster Y", or "fighters are weak at epic level, its all about the spellcasters!". </p><p></p><p>My solution for this is Metamartial Feats which are detailed in the Immortals Handbook Apotheosis. These will let you do the sort of epic combat actions from over the top wuxia movies and the more outrageous anime shows. They also add a flexibility to combat which alleviates problems of always hitting/never hitting and give epic martial characters a well needed kick in the pants.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I also have a lot more immortal-centric ideas that are technically not relevant for epic characters.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Upper_Krust, post: 2508874, member: 326"] Hey Aluvial! :) Well you can read my review of the Epic Level Handbook here: [url]http://www.immortalshandbook.com/review2.htm[/url] As S'mon noted, 'complexity increases over time'. The main problem with epic gaming is that setting it up and running it can be more time consuming than lower level gaming. PCs and NPCs and monsters will have more feats, more spells, more magic items - generally more options, and that means more prep work for the DM (unless they are running published material). So you could say that epic gaming is not as DM (or game designer) friendly. Yet while most of the design isn't great, the only 'broken' element is Challenge Ratings/Encounter Level. My solution for this is published with Grim Tales, by Bad Axe Games. Other areas we can change for the better include: 1.1. Spellcasting. Spellcasting after 20th-level (and by that I mean using Improved Spell Capacity) is SO badly designed its ridiculous. Its not only a complete nightmare to have to work out, but it also makes lower level spells virtually redundant. I posted my solution to this here: [url]http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm[/url] 1.2. Epic Spellcasting. For me, aspects of the design of epic spellcasting are @ss-backwards. The design forces you to create a spell you can't cast, and then, through mitigating factors whittle the spell down to a point where you can cast it. Its like WotC saying "We want you to count up to 500 and then count back down to 100." Also the epic spells simply don't give a good bang for their buck. They are underpowered (compared to spells elevated through metamagic) and not worthy of the GP costs attached. I'll have my solution for this in the Immortals Handbook: Grimoire. 2. Skills. At epic levels, having to calculate skill points is a chore. Skills really take a back seat to feats, items and spells by this point. So in many ways they are an unnecessary chore as well. My solution is to marginalise skills, initially by giving epic characters max. ranks in all known skills and subsequently giving them the opportunity to become omnicompetant (divine ability), so that they know all skills. A characters max skill ranks would be equal to its HD/Level + skill point modifier. This way, classes such as rogues still retain their advantage (multiclass uses primary class, or best if two or more classes are equal). 3. Feats. Feats are one of the mainstays of 3rd Edition. But I think this is an area where DMs could use a leg up, so to speak, with lots of character examples. Also, so that people never run out of feats, allow epic characters to choose Divine Abilities, by expending 5 feat slots provided they meet the prerequisites (this works better using my divine abilities rather than the Salient Divine Abilities in D&Dg which have a lot of unnecessary prereqs.). 4. Magic Items. I have rules in which characters would carry a small number of 'artifacts' (likely only four), instead of dozens of magic items. These would then 'evolve' with the character (similar to Weapons of Legacy of a fashion). Obviously the artifacts would be 'pound for pound' (slightly) more powerful, and to some extent multi-faceted, though not ridiculously so (think along the lines of the Sword of Kas in the DMG as an example of something you might be carrying at around 30th-level). 5. Combat. Some people are disenchanted with epic combat; either "its simply the same as low level combat but with bigger numbers - whats epic about that?", or "we are always hitting monster X or never hitting monster Y", or "fighters are weak at epic level, its all about the spellcasters!". My solution for this is Metamartial Feats which are detailed in the Immortals Handbook Apotheosis. These will let you do the sort of epic combat actions from over the top wuxia movies and the more outrageous anime shows. They also add a flexibility to combat which alleviates problems of always hitting/never hitting and give epic martial characters a well needed kick in the pants. I also have a lot more immortal-centric ideas that are technically not relevant for epic characters. [/QUOTE]
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I Have 8 20th Level Characters -- Now What?
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