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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6254191" data-attributes="member: 87792">Everyone who claims&nbsp; that the Book of 9 Swords makes fighters interesting is talking about&nbsp; the concept of a fighter rather than the fighter class as it exists in&nbsp; most editions of D&amp;D.&nbsp; 4th being a notable exception.&nbsp; Otherwise&nbsp; their claims don't make sense.&nbsp; Objecting that their claims don't make&nbsp; sense when to them they do just wastes time.&nbsp; Objecting on these grounds is pointless.This&nbsp; is actually a difference in philosophy and one about what classes mean -&nbsp; do they dictate the world or do they reflect it?&nbsp; Are Fighters called&nbsp; fighters because they are the class that was designed to represent&nbsp; fighters or do fighters do what they do because they are Fighters.If you can convince the entire D&amp;D community&nbsp; to accept this standard then fine.&nbsp; I don't think it will happen.&nbsp; Both&nbsp; definitions will be used - so you might as well be prepared for both.Because&nbsp; the class name was chosen to represent an archetype - and it's the&nbsp; archetype that people consider the important part.&nbsp; But this is&nbsp; irrelevant.&nbsp; People do this.And here you are flat incorrect.&nbsp; If they meant what you think they meant their argument makes no sense.&nbsp;&nbsp; Which means it must mean something else.&nbsp; You are misunderstanding&nbsp; their argument and replying to that.&nbsp; If you drop the prescriptivism and&nbsp; instead respond to the language as it is being used you stop talking&nbsp; past them.In short none of them solve the problem.&nbsp; That the fighter is&nbsp; mechanically boring and does not reflect the concerns an actual flesh&nbsp; and blood fighter would worry about.We're&nbsp; talking about the Book of 9 Swords.&nbsp; The Book of 9 Swords has literally&nbsp; nothing for ranged combatants.&nbsp; Thus the restriction.Classes&nbsp; that always want to move up and attack using the same attack, charge&nbsp; and attack, or full attack.&nbsp; They want to always be hitting in the same&nbsp; way.&nbsp; If it's a trip fighter they want to always be tripping.Not really, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai" target="_blank">looking at the Samurai class</a>.&nbsp; It's use class abilities and beat someone over the head - with a few modifiers to the rolls here or there.&nbsp; And the <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---samurai-orders/order-of-tajiya" target="_blank">Rite</a> <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---samurai-orders/order-of-the-shogunate" target="_blank">Publishing</a> <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---samurai-orders/order-of-the-undying-emperor" target="_blank">orders</a> don't help except with things that are very setting specific.The skill point issue is merely an example of how the fighter class is not fit for purpose.If we're talking about someone who finds the Book of 9 Swords&nbsp; classes interesting they are looking for a changing and interesting list&nbsp; of options in play - Pathfinder feats and features tend to fail hard&nbsp; here.&nbsp; It's not about concept, it's about execution and a specific form&nbsp; of execution.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6254191, member: 87792"] Everyone who claims that the Book of 9 Swords makes fighters interesting is talking about the concept of a fighter rather than the fighter class as it exists in most editions of D&D. 4th being a notable exception. Otherwise their claims don't make sense. Objecting that their claims don't make sense when to them they do just wastes time. Objecting on these grounds is pointless. This is actually a difference in philosophy and one about what classes mean - do they dictate the world or do they reflect it? Are Fighters called fighters because they are the class that was designed to represent fighters or do fighters do what they do because they are Fighters. If you can convince the entire D&D community to accept this standard then fine. I don't think it will happen. Both definitions will be used - so you might as well be prepared for both. Because the class name was chosen to represent an archetype - and it's the archetype that people consider the important part. But this is irrelevant. People do this. And here you are flat incorrect. If they meant what you think they meant [I]their argument makes no sense.[/I] Which means it must mean something else. You are misunderstanding their argument and replying to that. If you drop the prescriptivism and instead respond to the language as it is being used you stop talking past them. In short none of them solve the problem. That the fighter is mechanically boring and does not reflect the concerns an actual flesh and blood fighter would worry about. We're talking about the Book of 9 Swords. The Book of 9 Swords has literally nothing for ranged combatants. Thus the restriction. Classes that always want to move up and attack using the same attack, charge and attack, or full attack. They want to always be hitting in the same way. If it's a trip fighter they want to always be tripping. Not really, [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai"]looking at the Samurai class[/URL]. It's use class abilities and beat someone over the head - with a few modifiers to the rolls here or there. And the [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---samurai-orders/order-of-tajiya"]Rite[/URL] [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---samurai-orders/order-of-the-shogunate"]Publishing[/URL] [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---samurai-orders/order-of-the-undying-emperor"]orders[/URL] don't help except with things that are very setting specific. The skill point issue is merely an example of how the fighter class is not fit for purpose. If we're talking about someone who finds the Book of 9 Swords classes interesting they are looking for a changing and interesting list of options in play - Pathfinder feats and features tend to fail hard here. It's not about concept, it's about execution and a specific form of execution. [/QUOTE]

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