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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Axiomatic Unicorn" data-source="post: 80619" data-attributes="member: 1974">I can accept that.I certainly have no WoTC axe to grind.  If you look back through my posts you will find that I have not slammed WoTC anywhere.  I have been critical of people who, IMO blindly, get their back up when I point out a flaw.  I have specifically stated that I think 3E is a great system.  I am a former GURPS player and I think 3E is the best fantasy game to come around yet.Attack may be a strong word, but I think it is fairly accurate.  You have not attacked me on a personal level, but that is not what I mean.    If you review this thread you will see that my involvement in it started as a civil conversation with CRGreathouse and Kreynolds, primarily.    Later the posters addressing me (not CRGreathouse or Kreynolds) would start out of the gate with generic "It works fine."  comments without even addressing my points or making the slightest attempt to show that it works.  Again, they may as well be dripping wet and trying to tell me it is not raining.  The simple minded "no it isn't" debate style is irritating.  I should learn to ignore it as one of the prices of the wonderful freedom of speech.  But so far I have not mastered that ability.  I will plead guilty to this being on my list of flaws.Your first post was not aimed at me, but the "gasp" and "heresy" comments struck me as attacking, and as I saw it, you still did not really address the concerns.  You just said that they can be worked around.  Seriously, though, when did I ever say anything bad about WoTC?Was that you in the old thread?  I did not remember that.I think this issue is well off on a tangent.  But here goes.In the skills rules circumstance modifiers are only used to modifer the DC because of circustances.  If the CR circumstance modifiers were only used to modify exp because of circumstances, then I would have no problem with it.But when I read the CR rules, I get the clear understanding that circumstance modifiers should be used any time the CR just ins't really right.For example, if you are climbing a wall with a DC 10 and it is raining, you may add +5 to the DC.  No problem everything works fine.Fighting orcs who have the high ground may deserve a circumstance modifier for determining exp, and that is fine.But adding one level of fighter to a frost giant would increase his CR by +1.  Using a modifier to fix this, whatever you want to call the modifier, is nothing but a cover up.  And please, anyone, don't jump on this one example.  Look at the first post in this thread and tell me if the two cases deserve the same CR.  Which one needs to be fixed and what "circumstance" is that?Bottom line, using a modifier to "fix" a busted CR does not compare to using a modifier to legitimately adjust a DC for conditions.Actually, this is a good point.  You will note that the DC lists are generally very short, example lists and it is left to the DM to interpolate DCs. If a page or two list of CRs had been provided as reference, I would not have any room for complaint.  On the other hand, if they had developed a bunch of DC formulas that frequently gave the wrong answer, I would complain about the skills system.</blockquote>

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