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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3774913" data-attributes="member: 4937">Now we see another good example of where this anti-DM madness that cropped up at some point in 3rd edition is taking us.If the DM tells the players to use point buy, that's too limiting.  That's 'DM Control' over your character.  That's a straightjacket.  Or so we are told.  There is no way to answer this poll, because neither answer makes the slightest bit of sense.  If I tell you, make a first level character with 32 pt buy, I'm not controlling your character creation.When the character turns in his stat sheet and it reads:Ranger 1st LevelHP: 76  AC: 50  Damage: 1d8+86STR: 182 (really strong)DEX: 88 (not that agile)CON: 147 (tough)INT: 80 (not that bright)WIS: 103 (cunning)CHR: 138 (handsome but brooding)I'm expected to adjust my campaign to accomodate him?  I'd be attempted to introduce batman as a 6th level fighter with stats in the 16-20 range and allow him to squash in succession, Batman, Conan, John Carter of Mars, and Aragorn the Ranger in quick succession - likely with single hits.  Are we having fun yet?   Am I cramping your character concept.Even all 18's is probablimatic.  You actually need all 18's to carry your character concept? What sort of character concept is that?  Je suis Batman?  Aren't you at the wrong table?  Don't you want to be at that table were the referee is running a Supers game at letting one of his PC's be Galactus?  Point buy is the mechanic designed to let a character generate stats however the player wants within what is reasonable for the game system.  I can sympathize with the player who wants a high scale, high magic, high concept, high action adventure, super-heroic game with a 32 or 36 pt. buy, and the DM is set on a low scale, gritty, earthy game with a 24 pt buy.  There is room for negoitation there, although to be frank, its largely just number inflation for its own sake.  (I can remember a game where the DM let all the PC's have all 18's, but then found that to keep things 'balanced' so did every NPC right down to the ordinary member of the watch.)  But a player just comes to me and says, "Give me the stats I want (or else you are unfairly controlling my character."  No, I have no sympathy for that.What is the next step in this logic?  Obviously, if the DM is straight jacketting a character by limiting their stats to a certain range (using pt. buy), then he's also straight jacketing character creation by limiting level, by limiting the player to a particular range of classes, races, or class abilities.  Invent your own powers?   I guess we should all let everyone play Galactus/members of the Authority, regardless of game system or genre.I would like to point out that players are NOT allowed to do this with skill or feat selection.  During character creation you recieve a number of slots to spend on feats, and a limited supply of skill points to spend on skills (often limited by class selection).  The comparable argument is that players should be allowed to set any skill bonuses that they want, and select as many feats as they think that they need to be the character that they want to play.  So, by the same argument that I should set my attributes however I like without limit, I should have 20 ranks in all the skills, and start with 40 different feats.Really, this whole discussion is one short step from suggesting that when the DM set's the DC of a task, or determines the consequences of success or failure, he's forcing the player into a straightjacket.  You don't want a DM.  You just want someone to validate your success.</blockquote>

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