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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5306224" data-attributes="member: 78116">I agree with your point but we have two problems here, both are going to lead to entirely different discussions away from what the OP bought up.1) The first is that being a game, players never think to themselves "This encounter has been designed in a way that makes it unwinnable". 90% of the time, PCs will stay in a fight even if it is obviously unwinnable and won't consider retreat (in this case, retreat can be synonymous with "falling"). You can see the attitude easily in previous posts as some won't consider deliberately falling a better idea to being outnumbered by monsters that clearly outmatch you and will beat to death. It amuses me that falling is seen as suicidal, while standing unable to do anything (constantly dominated) against 5 daemons is seen as not being suicidal as well (it's hardly heroic either). But that's exactly the kind of attitude that players have in many cases. Even if you are completely doomed they won't do things like retreat, so often a very difficult encounter only ever goes one way: A TPK. I'd like to point out had the creatures involved just use their dominated actions to attack, this was a TPK easily and their "odd" tactics (to me) of trying to push the PCs off actually wasted most of the creatures attacking potential. 2) Following on directly from the first point, the DM needed to indicate to the PC that this fight was turning into a one sided murder fest. With a 10d6 drop and monsters that were focused mostly on throwing the characters off the DM should have adjusted. With two PCs "dead" - let's bear in mind that is effectively what happened here - the remaining two PCs should have retreated/allowed themselves to be forced off. But the DM needs to suggest such a course of action, so the PCs know standing and fighting is pointless. Especially against creatures that can chain dominate so - it's not as if she ever actually *fought* back period.This is where the DMs judgement was somewhat off, because he choose to attack the PC - dropping her HP and effectively preventing any chance of survival due to the high fall. I can't say with 100% certainty, but if she had not taken the 2-3 claw attacks before, I think even with rolling high on 10d6 she probably would have got away with falling. As it was the tactics varied from attacking an effectively "helpless" target and trying to push her off. Knocking her unconscious before throwing her off was almost guaranteed to kill her. Attacking the PC was not required given the situation and would have dramatically increased the chance of survival (despite the fall).So you can view it from either side. The PC didn't "retreat" when she had the option and the DM changed his tactics to using melee attacks, when that wasn't a requirement and only guaranteeing a death from the excessive fall.</blockquote>

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