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Message: <blockquote data-quote="thecasualoblivion" data-source="post: 4571462" data-attributes="member: 59096">The fact is that you can build Paladins and Swordmages that don't involve movement to a greater degree than the Dimension Door spell did. You can build Paladins and Swordmages that don't have a single power that move enemies or themselves. Its not a FUNDAMENTAL requirement of the role. It can't be if you can build the class without it. I said before that the role of Fighters/Defenders in every edition was to engage the enemy. Needing to stay close has been pretty much a constant, and while Fighters/Defenders have often used ranged attacks, their primary role was always being close. Strength is a dump stat for many Paladins and Swordmages. A Paladin who uses Charisma for attack roles needs Constitution and Wisdom more than he needs Strength, and is likely to dump it to a large degree and suck at opportunity attacks. A Shielding Swordmage who boosts Constitution and Intelligence doesn't benefit significantly from strength beyond the 13 needed for hide armor, and get more benefit from boosting Wisdom or Charisma for skills and Will defense. The Swordmage can take Intelligent Blademaster to have effective opportunity attacks though, and probably should. Many spells do have those effects(zones, moving enemies), but the fact is you can build a Wizard without having any. It again can't be a fundamental part of the role if it can be ignored. While it can be ignored, its difficult to build a Wizard without targetting multiple enemies, and doing so would be little different than building a 4E Fighter with 12 Strength and leather armor in terms of sanity. Multiple target spells varying in effectiveness depending on position existed in previous editions, and exists in games that don't use minis.Tactical Warlords love that. Inspiring Warlords tend not to. Again, you can build a Warlord without any powers or effects that move around little pieces of plastic. You can't build a Warlord who can't heal and buff. Its not fundamental if you can build a character without it.What you are saying means nothing. The minis and tactical movement/positioning thing does exist. Where you are getting this wrong is that the minis focus is a focus of 4E as a whole, and not inherent to the four roles. As the game as a whole focuses on minis and movement/position, it goes without saying that roles and classes have abilities that do this. They just aren't fundamentally defining to the role in a way that demands minis.I'm not talking AC, I'm talking defense and survivability. AC is just one part of that. Defenders are the only 4E characters that can consistently survive being attacked by multiple enemies round after round. In previous editions, Fighters/Defenders engaged the enemy in close combat in an attempt to take more attacks than other party members with less defense, and they had the ability to do this and survive.Targetting multiple enemies is what the Controller does above and beyond what everybody does. As I've stated before, you can build a Controller without your assumptions in 4E and have a viable character. None of the roles are minis-focused in and of themselves. Its the 4E system overall that is minis focused.In the vast majority of games, half of the time was spent in combat. Spending half of the game sucking at life doesn't sound interesting when there are alternatives. I don't understand playing a straight Thief in AD&D when Mage/Thief and Fighter/Thief are available. You sacrifice a small fraction of your Thiefdom in return for vastly increased combat ability and in the Mage/Thief's case doubling your ability outside of combat.</blockquote>

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