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Message: <blockquote data-quote="thecasualoblivion" data-source="post: 4571512" data-attributes="member: 59096">1. I still don't buy your assertion that the minis focus comes from or is tied up in the roles themselves, as opposed to being an overall focus of 4E. 2. Defenders are all about marking. Defenders are the only class that can assert their own mark at will. While marking is new to 4E, it doesn't in and of itself require minis. You can add Combat Challenge, Divine Challenge, and Swordmage Aegis to AD&D Fighters, Paladins, and Fighter/Mages and they will all work seamlessly with or without minis. Defense is the other half of marking because if you are going to encourage things to hit you, you need to be able to survive doing so or you suck at life.3. 4E itself is all about moving pieces of plastic. The roles are simply a reflection of this. They are not the source.4. While Paladins and Swordmages have some powers abilities that limit enemy movement, they have no more or less than other classes/roles do. Denying enemy movement is a unique feature of the Fighter class, and not the Defender role as a whole. At-Will marking and high survivability(which is again not limited to AC) are the constants among all three Defenders, and are exclusive. Here is a list of At-Will movement denial:Cleric-Str Clerics get decent opportunity attacksFighter-Combat Challenge and Superiority class features dominate enemy movementPaladin-Str Paladins get decent opportunity attacksRanger-TWF and Beastmaster Rangers get decent opportunity attacksRogue-Brutal Scoundrels and Ruthless Ruffians get decent opportunity attacksWarlock-Dire Radiance damages enemies who move closer to youWarlord-Decent opportunity attacks, Viper's Strike makes shifting provoke opportunity attacksWizard-Ray of Frost slowsSwordmage-Assault Swordmages and Intelligent Blademasters have good opportunity attacks, Booming Blade damages enemies who moveArtificer-has nothing that prevents enemy movementBarbarian-Has good opportunity attacksDruid-has good opportunity attacks while wildshaped, Flame Seed, Grasping Claws, and Storm Spike all interfere with enemy movementBard-nothing by itself, but Misdirected Mark plus a Fighter equals can't move5. Defenders have always existed. They have existed in that they attempted to do what 4E Defenders did, and weren't as effective at it because they lacked the marks.6. While the 1E Fighter didn't have the tools the 4E Fighter does, he attempts to achieve the same end.</blockquote>

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