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I love 5E, but lately I miss 4E's monsters
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7014317" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Couple things on this:</p><p></p><p>1) Brutes are always more potent when coupled with a Leader.</p><p></p><p>2) I'm wondering if your GM (or you) used updated math Brutes or MM3/MV Brutes (or the mid/later Dungeon ones). Speaking of Red Dragons? Low paragon tier multi-headed Red Dragon Calastryx (Brute)? A Wizard will have mid-60s HPs when Calastryx will be encountered;</p><p></p><p>a) Attacks on Init 30, 20, 10 (and 40 when Bloodied)</p><p>b) Does 28 damage with a Slide 3 rider (keeping you nice and close for furthing OMNOMNOMing...for sitting in her Breath Weapon conflagration rider = 10 fire damage/turn...better have a teleport or a Defender!).</p><p>c) Each of her 3 heads tracks Breath Weapon recharge and Rip and Tear usage on their own (so basically a possible 3-4 Breath Weapons or Multi-attacks on one combat turn...yikes).</p><p></p><p>That is a Brute. And that Wizard is lunch if things don't go right.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You actually picked the only dragon age that wasn't updated. Even if you would have picked a Young Dragon, things would have been different. Even still, while the non-updated Adults aren't remotely as nuanced/good as all the other dragons, they are still observably different from their kin in how each would manifest in play (which I thought was the premise?).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Some pretty large pieces of the puzzle missing here.</p><p></p><p>a) The Opportunity Cost of subbing a 5e Dragon Multiattack for the Shove Action is way, way, way too steep. You better be ensured an auto-gib from fall death. First, you have to have a contest for it to work. Second, it is either 5 ft <strong><em>or </em></strong>prone, not both. Meanwhile, the 4e Blue Dragon is (i) doing a chunk of physical/lightning damage to you while (ii) automatically pushing you 3 squares <strong><em>and </em></strong>knocking you prone. Prone, which is a more punitive condition in 4e than it is in 5e.</p><p></p><p>That is a suite of melee riders built for a "mobile, sky-kiting, lightning/thunder hurler." Get out of melee and right back on the wing. And maybe drop someone off a cliff after you've NOMMED them.</p><p></p><p>b) Yes, my guess is 5e's "Wing Attack" was pulled directly from the Blue Dragon "Wingclap." The thing is though that all dragon's generically have Wing Attack as a 2 LA costing ability that does the same thing regardless of dragon. The premise (I thought) was distinctive things across the dragons. The 4e Blue Dragon's Wingclap synergizes with its other unique abilities to create a distinct draconic experience (very distinct from the Red) at the table for both player and GM.</p><p></p><p>You also have to consider everything in context (especially (a) and (b) above). 4e's melee is passively-persistently "sticky" with lots of participants having active abilities to punish or restrict movement (see the updated Red Dragon that you didn't use for your argument - 3 * mid/high DC Grapple + Interrupt on any movement within 4 squares and you get smashed and come right back next to "good ole red"). Everyone isn't just a Skirmisher by default. Having resources to escape the passive/active melee vortex is absolutely central to being a functional and effective Skirmisher or (in this case) ranged Artillery. </p><p></p><p>c) and d). C is what it is. Stunned until the end of your next turn nearly the entire time (5 % of the time saved ends instead...not too complicated). And D is what it is. Not just a "different breath weapon." Its another long range, deadly kiting tool. The difference between Range 20 and Close Blast 5 is gigantic (as you know).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Lair Effects (which I touted all through the playtest as the best 5e tech along with the Background Traits and a few other things that didn't make the cut) and Regional Effects are what make the 5e dragon's distinctive. Their basic chassis is entirely nondescript (save for Burrow vs Climb...which, given the fleeting fury of 5e combat, may...or very well may not...be featured for a sparing moment on-screen). </p><p></p><p>They each need a personalized suite of synergizing Legendary Actions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7014317, member: 6696971"] Couple things on this: 1) Brutes are always more potent when coupled with a Leader. 2) I'm wondering if your GM (or you) used updated math Brutes or MM3/MV Brutes (or the mid/later Dungeon ones). Speaking of Red Dragons? Low paragon tier multi-headed Red Dragon Calastryx (Brute)? A Wizard will have mid-60s HPs when Calastryx will be encountered; a) Attacks on Init 30, 20, 10 (and 40 when Bloodied) b) Does 28 damage with a Slide 3 rider (keeping you nice and close for furthing OMNOMNOMing...for sitting in her Breath Weapon conflagration rider = 10 fire damage/turn...better have a teleport or a Defender!). c) Each of her 3 heads tracks Breath Weapon recharge and Rip and Tear usage on their own (so basically a possible 3-4 Breath Weapons or Multi-attacks on one combat turn...yikes). That is a Brute. And that Wizard is lunch if things don't go right. You actually picked the only dragon age that wasn't updated. Even if you would have picked a Young Dragon, things would have been different. Even still, while the non-updated Adults aren't remotely as nuanced/good as all the other dragons, they are still observably different from their kin in how each would manifest in play (which I thought was the premise?). Some pretty large pieces of the puzzle missing here. a) The Opportunity Cost of subbing a 5e Dragon Multiattack for the Shove Action is way, way, way too steep. You better be ensured an auto-gib from fall death. First, you have to have a contest for it to work. Second, it is either 5 ft [B][I]or [/I][/B]prone, not both. Meanwhile, the 4e Blue Dragon is (i) doing a chunk of physical/lightning damage to you while (ii) automatically pushing you 3 squares [B][I]and [/I][/B]knocking you prone. Prone, which is a more punitive condition in 4e than it is in 5e. That is a suite of melee riders built for a "mobile, sky-kiting, lightning/thunder hurler." Get out of melee and right back on the wing. And maybe drop someone off a cliff after you've NOMMED them. b) Yes, my guess is 5e's "Wing Attack" was pulled directly from the Blue Dragon "Wingclap." The thing is though that all dragon's generically have Wing Attack as a 2 LA costing ability that does the same thing regardless of dragon. The premise (I thought) was distinctive things across the dragons. The 4e Blue Dragon's Wingclap synergizes with its other unique abilities to create a distinct draconic experience (very distinct from the Red) at the table for both player and GM. You also have to consider everything in context (especially (a) and (b) above). 4e's melee is passively-persistently "sticky" with lots of participants having active abilities to punish or restrict movement (see the updated Red Dragon that you didn't use for your argument - 3 * mid/high DC Grapple + Interrupt on any movement within 4 squares and you get smashed and come right back next to "good ole red"). Everyone isn't just a Skirmisher by default. Having resources to escape the passive/active melee vortex is absolutely central to being a functional and effective Skirmisher or (in this case) ranged Artillery. c) and d). C is what it is. Stunned until the end of your next turn nearly the entire time (5 % of the time saved ends instead...not too complicated). And D is what it is. Not just a "different breath weapon." Its another long range, deadly kiting tool. The difference between Range 20 and Close Blast 5 is gigantic (as you know). The Lair Effects (which I touted all through the playtest as the best 5e tech along with the Background Traits and a few other things that didn't make the cut) and Regional Effects are what make the 5e dragon's distinctive. Their basic chassis is entirely nondescript (save for Burrow vs Climb...which, given the fleeting fury of 5e combat, may...or very well may not...be featured for a sparing moment on-screen). They each need a personalized suite of synergizing Legendary Actions. [/QUOTE]
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