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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
I love 5E, but lately I miss 4E's monsters
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<blockquote data-quote="machineelf" data-source="post: 7014548" data-attributes="member: 6774924"><p>No. They don't for me. The nature of the game is that there <em>must</em> be some mechanics to it. We all accept that. It's a balance of mechanics and storytelling. But when the game becomes too much about the mechanics in ways that are at many times detached from the logic and reason for why and how those mechanics correspond to the natural order of the fantasy world the character is in, immersion becomes broken for me.</p><p></p><p>Feats are extra abilities your character learns as they become more skilled and a more powerful warrior or wizard or thief. Armor class represents the quality of armor you have and/or how fast you can move and react in a fight. Proficiency bonus again represents you becoming better at picking locks or sneaking around the more you practice and the greater an adventurer you become with experience. Spell levels represent your knowledge of the magical arts and how, through your studies, you have increased your control over the arcane weave. </p><p></p><p>See how those mechanics are tied to story-telling aspects? Some mechanics don't fit into story-telling aspects as well, for sure. But 4th edition has many more of those kinds of mechanics that are detached from immersive story-telling explanations, for me. Why can a fighter only do a brutal strike or a crushing foot attack once per day? Umm ... because it's a daily power, that's why, don't ask questions. At least in 5th the fighter can only do his second wind and action surge once per short rest because it takes a lot out of him to push himself to those levels. There, explanation given that fits into the storytelling nature and has a level of verisimilitude. And there are only a few of those kinds of things, you're not hit over the head with a hundred of them that are daily powers just because each class needs a certain number of daily powers for the sake of the mechanics.</p><p></p><p>Playing card powers; Having each class have as many "powers" as any other; everything being aligned tightly to a grid ... it all just became more of a board game feel than an immersive role-playing game.</p><p></p><p>Like, why in the world do "minions" with 1 hit-point exist? I know why the exist in terms of the game mechanics, but how does that fit into the world? Creatures that can do a good bit of damage, but are always on the verge of dying if you blow on them? It's such a game mechanic detached from the verisimilitude of the world the characters are living in; it's a prime example of what I'm talking about.</p><p></p><p>Now I like 4e for what it is, a well designed tactical grid-based board game. But it's not the immersive D&D experience I wanted. That's my opinion, and you very well may not agree with it, but I'm telling you why I think a lot of people like me abandoned 4th edition, WOTC knew it was in trouble, and why 5th edition has done so much better. Not trying to start an edition war, because like I said I thought 4th edition, for what it was, was really well designed. But the designers, in my opinion, lost track of how tying skills and abilities and magic to the story-telling aspect of the game creates the overall cohesive, immersive nature that role-players (and not roll-players) want.</p><p></p><p>In 5th edition, if feels like I am casting an arcane ritual using my spellbook. In 4th edition, it feels like I am playing a card on the table. Everything was too meta-game mechanics wise in 4th.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="machineelf, post: 7014548, member: 6774924"] No. They don't for me. The nature of the game is that there [I]must[/I] be some mechanics to it. We all accept that. It's a balance of mechanics and storytelling. But when the game becomes too much about the mechanics in ways that are at many times detached from the logic and reason for why and how those mechanics correspond to the natural order of the fantasy world the character is in, immersion becomes broken for me. Feats are extra abilities your character learns as they become more skilled and a more powerful warrior or wizard or thief. Armor class represents the quality of armor you have and/or how fast you can move and react in a fight. Proficiency bonus again represents you becoming better at picking locks or sneaking around the more you practice and the greater an adventurer you become with experience. Spell levels represent your knowledge of the magical arts and how, through your studies, you have increased your control over the arcane weave. See how those mechanics are tied to story-telling aspects? Some mechanics don't fit into story-telling aspects as well, for sure. But 4th edition has many more of those kinds of mechanics that are detached from immersive story-telling explanations, for me. Why can a fighter only do a brutal strike or a crushing foot attack once per day? Umm ... because it's a daily power, that's why, don't ask questions. At least in 5th the fighter can only do his second wind and action surge once per short rest because it takes a lot out of him to push himself to those levels. There, explanation given that fits into the storytelling nature and has a level of verisimilitude. And there are only a few of those kinds of things, you're not hit over the head with a hundred of them that are daily powers just because each class needs a certain number of daily powers for the sake of the mechanics. Playing card powers; Having each class have as many "powers" as any other; everything being aligned tightly to a grid ... it all just became more of a board game feel than an immersive role-playing game. Like, why in the world do "minions" with 1 hit-point exist? I know why the exist in terms of the game mechanics, but how does that fit into the world? Creatures that can do a good bit of damage, but are always on the verge of dying if you blow on them? It's such a game mechanic detached from the verisimilitude of the world the characters are living in; it's a prime example of what I'm talking about. Now I like 4e for what it is, a well designed tactical grid-based board game. But it's not the immersive D&D experience I wanted. That's my opinion, and you very well may not agree with it, but I'm telling you why I think a lot of people like me abandoned 4th edition, WOTC knew it was in trouble, and why 5th edition has done so much better. Not trying to start an edition war, because like I said I thought 4th edition, for what it was, was really well designed. But the designers, in my opinion, lost track of how tying skills and abilities and magic to the story-telling aspect of the game creates the overall cohesive, immersive nature that role-players (and not roll-players) want. In 5th edition, if feels like I am casting an arcane ritual using my spellbook. In 4th edition, it feels like I am playing a card on the table. Everything was too meta-game mechanics wise in 4th. [/QUOTE]
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I love 5E, but lately I miss 4E's monsters
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