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D&D Older Editions
I love 5E, but lately I miss 4E's monsters
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<blockquote data-quote="Dualazi" data-source="post: 7015131" data-attributes="member: 6855537"><p>This is what I was getting at earlier in the thread when I said they just disguised things that are essentially similar/identical. Hell, your descriptions themselves are the same justifications posited by people defending 4e: “At least in 5th the fighter can only do his second wind and action surge once per short rest because it takes a lot out of him to push himself to those levels”, yeah, kinda like a fighter in 4e can only do certain attacks once per encounter or day because of the effort required. What’s weird to me about all this is how blithely people accept the justification worded one way, but reject it when described in a different fashion.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Obviously I can’t speak for you or your players but I had little issue with this. Mechanically I had players make less trip/shove options outside of powers that did so, but from an RP standpoint there wasn’t a conflict as a result of system mechanics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Minions exist as a narrative aid. They’re mooks that the heroes blow through on the way to the big bad, and are also a way of showing character progress. An example is that an Ogre might be a solo at level 2, a regular brute at 5, and a minion at 10. In the world at large, it’s still the same ogre, but the players have advanced sufficiently that its stats have changed in relation. FWIW, 5e pretty much still has minions. It’s just a result of bounded accuracy, that CR ½ nobodies can still get the occasional hit on high level PCs, but are typically cleaned out with 1-2 hits or middling AoE. This yet again goes back to the point I keep hammering away at, that many things are still functionally the same, just a little more opaque about it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is just bizarre to me, because of all the sweeping changes made to class structure in 4e, casters probably changed the least in my opinion, save having fewer spells than before. (and even then, wizards still got extra dailies from their book). 4e was also the first to experiment with separated rituals, which lead to the compromise of ritual casting in 5e, which was an excellent change in my opinion. Pretty sure spell cards have become pretty popular for casters as well, and there’s no functional difference between that and a power card.</p><p></p><p>Tl;dr: Presentation isn’t meaningless, but I find a lot of the complaints about it to be strange and borderline hypocritical. That’s not directed at any individual either, just what I’ve seen here on enworld and elsewhere.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dualazi, post: 7015131, member: 6855537"] This is what I was getting at earlier in the thread when I said they just disguised things that are essentially similar/identical. Hell, your descriptions themselves are the same justifications posited by people defending 4e: “At least in 5th the fighter can only do his second wind and action surge once per short rest because it takes a lot out of him to push himself to those levels”, yeah, kinda like a fighter in 4e can only do certain attacks once per encounter or day because of the effort required. What’s weird to me about all this is how blithely people accept the justification worded one way, but reject it when described in a different fashion. Obviously I can’t speak for you or your players but I had little issue with this. Mechanically I had players make less trip/shove options outside of powers that did so, but from an RP standpoint there wasn’t a conflict as a result of system mechanics. Minions exist as a narrative aid. They’re mooks that the heroes blow through on the way to the big bad, and are also a way of showing character progress. An example is that an Ogre might be a solo at level 2, a regular brute at 5, and a minion at 10. In the world at large, it’s still the same ogre, but the players have advanced sufficiently that its stats have changed in relation. FWIW, 5e pretty much still has minions. It’s just a result of bounded accuracy, that CR ½ nobodies can still get the occasional hit on high level PCs, but are typically cleaned out with 1-2 hits or middling AoE. This yet again goes back to the point I keep hammering away at, that many things are still functionally the same, just a little more opaque about it. This is just bizarre to me, because of all the sweeping changes made to class structure in 4e, casters probably changed the least in my opinion, save having fewer spells than before. (and even then, wizards still got extra dailies from their book). 4e was also the first to experiment with separated rituals, which lead to the compromise of ritual casting in 5e, which was an excellent change in my opinion. Pretty sure spell cards have become pretty popular for casters as well, and there’s no functional difference between that and a power card. Tl;dr: Presentation isn’t meaningless, but I find a lot of the complaints about it to be strange and borderline hypocritical. That’s not directed at any individual either, just what I’ve seen here on enworld and elsewhere. [/QUOTE]
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