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I love 5E, but lately I miss 4E's monsters
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7017298" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>I think both of you are missing the point <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>The point isn't to import everything about 4E monsters into 5E. </p><p></p><p>I fully agree 4E locked things too tightly to level and CR. That's presumably not what people want when they say they miss 4E monster design in 5E.</p><p></p><p>It is the varied and unique actions we want. </p><p></p><p>All (or most) low-level humanoids adhere to the basic combat rules in 5E. This means there is little to no variety in how they express themselves during combat. In 5E even something as basal as a pounce attack is rather rare. </p><p></p><p>That's not good enough. </p><p></p><p>Compare to how cool it would be (from a game perspective) if some monsters had spiked clubs that caught in your flesh on a good hit and restrained you.</p><p></p><p>Another complaint is "blood frenzy" type of abilities. Some humanoids and other low-leve critters have them. But it's all so incredibly cautious, like when it only apples when the monster has 10 hp left. That means most monsters will die without ever getting the chance of displaying their blood frenzy, and even for those that do (meaning even after every party member has had a go, they're still left alive and with single-digit hp) they will probably only live for a single round to express it.</p><p></p><p>What you want in 5E is much more of a variation. Instead of fighting a dozen Grimlocks or Quaggoth, you want them to display variation. This causes "texture" into the fight. Texture from a gaming perspective that is. Some monsters need to be taken out first. Some monsters should be ignored until last. </p><p></p><p>Sure D&D has always had this - add a spellcaster and a big bag of hp. But 4E <strong>greatly increased</strong> this variation. </p><p></p><p>4E also strongly supported the idea that having a humanoid as a foe at different levels is a fun and cool thing to have. 5e is by contrast a sad throwback to the idea that goblins should only be used at low levels; and many humanoids have only a single 1/2 CR stat block.</p><p></p><p>That 4E <strong>also</strong> added much more "balance" to this by locking monsters to their CR is actually a completely separate design mechanic, that goes against this variety (just as you say). </p><p></p><p>But there is no reason why we can't eat the cake (more varied monster versions 4E style) while still keeping it (by sticking to the much greater "unfairness" of 5e core monster building design principles) <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7017298, member: 12731"] I think both of you are missing the point :) The point isn't to import everything about 4E monsters into 5E. I fully agree 4E locked things too tightly to level and CR. That's presumably not what people want when they say they miss 4E monster design in 5E. It is the varied and unique actions we want. All (or most) low-level humanoids adhere to the basic combat rules in 5E. This means there is little to no variety in how they express themselves during combat. In 5E even something as basal as a pounce attack is rather rare. That's not good enough. Compare to how cool it would be (from a game perspective) if some monsters had spiked clubs that caught in your flesh on a good hit and restrained you. Another complaint is "blood frenzy" type of abilities. Some humanoids and other low-leve critters have them. But it's all so incredibly cautious, like when it only apples when the monster has 10 hp left. That means most monsters will die without ever getting the chance of displaying their blood frenzy, and even for those that do (meaning even after every party member has had a go, they're still left alive and with single-digit hp) they will probably only live for a single round to express it. What you want in 5E is much more of a variation. Instead of fighting a dozen Grimlocks or Quaggoth, you want them to display variation. This causes "texture" into the fight. Texture from a gaming perspective that is. Some monsters need to be taken out first. Some monsters should be ignored until last. Sure D&D has always had this - add a spellcaster and a big bag of hp. But 4E [B]greatly increased[/B] this variation. 4E also strongly supported the idea that having a humanoid as a foe at different levels is a fun and cool thing to have. 5e is by contrast a sad throwback to the idea that goblins should only be used at low levels; and many humanoids have only a single 1/2 CR stat block. That 4E [B]also[/B] added much more "balance" to this by locking monsters to their CR is actually a completely separate design mechanic, that goes against this variety (just as you say). But there is no reason why we can't eat the cake (more varied monster versions 4E style) while still keeping it (by sticking to the much greater "unfairness" of 5e core monster building design principles) :) [/QUOTE]
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