Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
"I make a perception check."
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 8719598" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>An investigation check is most definitely not just a more specific perception check at my table. I mean, for one thing I call for the ability and let the player determine if one of their proficiencies applies, so it’s really just a wisdom check, to which you can decide if you think your perception or investigation proficiency (or some other proficiency or no proficiency at all) applies. But, by default the investigation skill is a specific application of the intelligence ability. According to the PHB, “an Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning” and proficiency in the investigation skill applies “When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues.” In contrast, Perception is a specific application of wisdom. The PHB says “A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone's feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person” and perception proficiency applies when you try to “spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something.” In other words, Perception is for finding the clues, investigation is for deducing their meaning.</p><p></p><p>I don’t see anything unreasonable in that exchange.</p><p></p><p>Well… Except I guess for the part where the assassin successfully stabs the PC in the back without initiative being rolled or an attack roll being made. But I don’t think that was what you were meaning to use the example to illustrate.</p><p></p><p>Yes. From them holding up the die and saying “religion?” I can reasonably surmise that they want to know something about the idol, and that they think their proficiency in religion would be applicable if a roll is required. But they have not conveyed any information about what they want to know, nor have they provided me with enough information to determine whether the attempt to learn that information could succeed or not.</p><p></p><p>Asking what about the idol though? Are they asking if they’ve run across it in their studies? If so, they could simply say that, instead of relying on me to correctly guess that instead of making a different assumption. Maybe I think they’re asking if it depicts a god they’re familiar with. Maybe I think they’re asking if it displays any signs of having been desecrated. Point is, I can’t read their mind, nor am I interested in trying to guess what they meant.</p><p></p><p>I’m not asking where they acquired their proficiency, I’m asking where they imagine their character might have learned the information they want to know about the idol. Doing so gives me something to assess to determine if the action can succeed or fail and what check to call for if both are possible, and it reveals an interesting detail about the character’s backstory.</p><p></p><p>You don’t make checks in real life at all. They’re a gameplay concession, used to resolve uncertainty.</p><p></p><p>Again, I just call for an Intelligence check in either case and let the player determine if one of their proficiencies applies.</p><p></p><p>When you walk into a room, I describe anything you can perceive that isn’t hidden, and use your passive perception to determine if you notice anything that is hidden. That’s how the rules indicate that such general “looking around” should be resolved. If for some reason you suspect there is still something hidden that you missed with your passive perception, you have to <em>do something</em> if you want to find it, and you need to tell me what it is you do. Is what you do altering the environment? Will an Intelligence (Investigation) check be needed to resolve it? I can’t know until you tell me what it is you do.</p><p></p><p>Great, and for that you get to apply your passive ability (skill).</p><p></p><p>If the players think that me describing the NPC as unusually sweaty is enough to confirm that the NPC is lying, they are free to proceed according to that assumption. I generally advise that it’s smart play to take steps to confirm your assumptions, but that’s the players’ decision to make.</p><p></p><p>They didn’t miss any clues. I described what they perceived, as it is the DM’s role to do. They are free to decide what to do with that information. Again, I advise that it’s smart play to try and confirm their assumptions through action, but it’s up to them.</p><p></p><p>Well, I’m a pretty damn good actor, but even so, I don’t want to rely solely on my acting ability to convey clues about a character’s emotional state. For one thing, I’ve played with people who have difficulty reading social cues and I don’t want them to be at a disadvantage because they can’t tell that I’m acting like someone who’s trying to hide something. No, I’m going to <em>describe</em> whatever the cue is, narratively, rather than relying on the players’ real life ability to read my behavior.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 8719598, member: 6779196"] An investigation check is most definitely not just a more specific perception check at my table. I mean, for one thing I call for the ability and let the player determine if one of their proficiencies applies, so it’s really just a wisdom check, to which you can decide if you think your perception or investigation proficiency (or some other proficiency or no proficiency at all) applies. But, by default the investigation skill is a specific application of the intelligence ability. According to the PHB, “an Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning” and proficiency in the investigation skill applies “When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues.” In contrast, Perception is a specific application of wisdom. The PHB says “A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone's feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person” and perception proficiency applies when you try to “spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something.” In other words, Perception is for finding the clues, investigation is for deducing their meaning. I don’t see anything unreasonable in that exchange. Well… Except I guess for the part where the assassin successfully stabs the PC in the back without initiative being rolled or an attack roll being made. But I don’t think that was what you were meaning to use the example to illustrate. Yes. From them holding up the die and saying “religion?” I can reasonably surmise that they want to know something about the idol, and that they think their proficiency in religion would be applicable if a roll is required. But they have not conveyed any information about what they want to know, nor have they provided me with enough information to determine whether the attempt to learn that information could succeed or not. Asking what about the idol though? Are they asking if they’ve run across it in their studies? If so, they could simply say that, instead of relying on me to correctly guess that instead of making a different assumption. Maybe I think they’re asking if it depicts a god they’re familiar with. Maybe I think they’re asking if it displays any signs of having been desecrated. Point is, I can’t read their mind, nor am I interested in trying to guess what they meant. I’m not asking where they acquired their proficiency, I’m asking where they imagine their character might have learned the information they want to know about the idol. Doing so gives me something to assess to determine if the action can succeed or fail and what check to call for if both are possible, and it reveals an interesting detail about the character’s backstory. You don’t make checks in real life at all. They’re a gameplay concession, used to resolve uncertainty. Again, I just call for an Intelligence check in either case and let the player determine if one of their proficiencies applies. When you walk into a room, I describe anything you can perceive that isn’t hidden, and use your passive perception to determine if you notice anything that is hidden. That’s how the rules indicate that such general “looking around” should be resolved. If for some reason you suspect there is still something hidden that you missed with your passive perception, you have to [I]do something[/I] if you want to find it, and you need to tell me what it is you do. Is what you do altering the environment? Will an Intelligence (Investigation) check be needed to resolve it? I can’t know until you tell me what it is you do. Great, and for that you get to apply your passive ability (skill). If the players think that me describing the NPC as unusually sweaty is enough to confirm that the NPC is lying, they are free to proceed according to that assumption. I generally advise that it’s smart play to take steps to confirm your assumptions, but that’s the players’ decision to make. They didn’t miss any clues. I described what they perceived, as it is the DM’s role to do. They are free to decide what to do with that information. Again, I advise that it’s smart play to try and confirm their assumptions through action, but it’s up to them. Well, I’m a pretty damn good actor, but even so, I don’t want to rely solely on my acting ability to convey clues about a character’s emotional state. For one thing, I’ve played with people who have difficulty reading social cues and I don’t want them to be at a disadvantage because they can’t tell that I’m acting like someone who’s trying to hide something. No, I’m going to [I]describe[/I] whatever the cue is, narratively, rather than relying on the players’ real life ability to read my behavior. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
"I make a perception check."
Top