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"I make a perception check."
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<blockquote data-quote="Cruentus" data-source="post: 8720266" data-attributes="member: 7034645"><p>Yeah, I don't see malicious intent on the part of the DM in this instance, I see your expecting or projecting that malicious intent though. </p><p></p><p>If you come to a door in a dungeon/house/castle/whatever, I, as the DM, tell you what you see (i.e. what you perceive):</p><p></p><p>DM: "You stand in a doorway. The floor is made of wood, very much scratched and well trod. Covering the center of the floor is a rug, what you might have thought as being luxurious is now threadbare and also worn. There is a large wooden desk directly opposite you in the room. It looks heavy and well made, in better condition than the rest of the room's contents. On the desk you see a burning candelabra, some papers, writing implements, and several small boxes, closed. You see two chests in the corner across the room, stacked, they have padlocks on them, and seem to be closed. There is an armoire to your left along the wall, and to your right is a chair, turned facing the desk."</p><p>PLAYER: "I roll Perception."</p><p>DM: "You see what I just described, would you like me to read it again."</p><p>PLAYER: "I roll Perception to see if there are any traps."</p><p>DM: (No roll) "From where you are standing, you don't see any traps. What do you do"</p><p>PLAYER: "I want to roll."</p><p></p><p>So, the player wants to roll to avoid the possibility of there being any traps they might stumble into, I get that. But its pretty ridiculous. Unless there is a tripwire across the doorway (which I would have described, by the way, because I assume the character can see (ie. has light, the room is lit), and characters don't just stumble into rooms that are unfamiliar, unless the player says "I burst into the room, what do I see?"</p><p></p><p>IF there were a trap in that room, say, a trap door in the floor, I would have given a hint of some kind - one part of the wooden floor seems to have been recently repaired, the rug seems uneven in the middle of the rug, where it is not elsewhere, there is a pull rope to the side of the desk, etc.). </p><p></p><p>The player then needs to tell me what they're doing in the room. Using Perception is not a magic ability. It doesn't do anything mystical. I can't help you find traps, unless you look for them (at least in my game). I'm of the camp that traps shouldn't be "oops, you didn't say you searched that square, you fell into a pit trap!" or "You failed that role, that's where the trap is, mwahaha!" You'll see the wire, or the trigger, or potentially something out of the ordinary that will clue you in. </p><p></p><p>In the description above, the player could say, "I think there might be something under the rug, so I'll skirt around it to the desk, going the direction of the chair. Does the rug go all the way under the desk?" I might call for a Perception check there (though likely not, you can see if the rug is there or not), or maybe I'll call for a check, because now you're passing the chair, you do notice some dried blood on the arm of the chair that wasn't visible from the door (and you were focusing on the rug and desk). Or maybe I ask for a check, and then say "From this angle, the rug doesn't look like its sitting perfectly flat, something appears to maybe be under it." </p><p></p><p>Its got to make logical sense in the progression of the adventure/story. Its not a gotcha. Its not a malicious DM. I also realize that other tables want these kinds of things to go faster, <skip> passed the dialogue, investigation, exploration, not get hurt, surprised, damaged, whatever. Thats fine. My table, and its the same when I play with our group, this kind of stuff is where the interesting bits can be, when built around the action of fighting. </p><p></p><p>Its also why I switched to OSE/Basic. No skills. We adjudicate what happens as you describe what happens. If you stand there in the door, I read the above, and ask you what you want to do. Now, there are no skills on your sheet. What DO you do?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cruentus, post: 8720266, member: 7034645"] Yeah, I don't see malicious intent on the part of the DM in this instance, I see your expecting or projecting that malicious intent though. If you come to a door in a dungeon/house/castle/whatever, I, as the DM, tell you what you see (i.e. what you perceive): DM: "You stand in a doorway. The floor is made of wood, very much scratched and well trod. Covering the center of the floor is a rug, what you might have thought as being luxurious is now threadbare and also worn. There is a large wooden desk directly opposite you in the room. It looks heavy and well made, in better condition than the rest of the room's contents. On the desk you see a burning candelabra, some papers, writing implements, and several small boxes, closed. You see two chests in the corner across the room, stacked, they have padlocks on them, and seem to be closed. There is an armoire to your left along the wall, and to your right is a chair, turned facing the desk." PLAYER: "I roll Perception." DM: "You see what I just described, would you like me to read it again." PLAYER: "I roll Perception to see if there are any traps." DM: (No roll) "From where you are standing, you don't see any traps. What do you do" PLAYER: "I want to roll." So, the player wants to roll to avoid the possibility of there being any traps they might stumble into, I get that. But its pretty ridiculous. Unless there is a tripwire across the doorway (which I would have described, by the way, because I assume the character can see (ie. has light, the room is lit), and characters don't just stumble into rooms that are unfamiliar, unless the player says "I burst into the room, what do I see?" IF there were a trap in that room, say, a trap door in the floor, I would have given a hint of some kind - one part of the wooden floor seems to have been recently repaired, the rug seems uneven in the middle of the rug, where it is not elsewhere, there is a pull rope to the side of the desk, etc.). The player then needs to tell me what they're doing in the room. Using Perception is not a magic ability. It doesn't do anything mystical. I can't help you find traps, unless you look for them (at least in my game). I'm of the camp that traps shouldn't be "oops, you didn't say you searched that square, you fell into a pit trap!" or "You failed that role, that's where the trap is, mwahaha!" You'll see the wire, or the trigger, or potentially something out of the ordinary that will clue you in. In the description above, the player could say, "I think there might be something under the rug, so I'll skirt around it to the desk, going the direction of the chair. Does the rug go all the way under the desk?" I might call for a Perception check there (though likely not, you can see if the rug is there or not), or maybe I'll call for a check, because now you're passing the chair, you do notice some dried blood on the arm of the chair that wasn't visible from the door (and you were focusing on the rug and desk). Or maybe I ask for a check, and then say "From this angle, the rug doesn't look like its sitting perfectly flat, something appears to maybe be under it." Its got to make logical sense in the progression of the adventure/story. Its not a gotcha. Its not a malicious DM. I also realize that other tables want these kinds of things to go faster, <skip> passed the dialogue, investigation, exploration, not get hurt, surprised, damaged, whatever. Thats fine. My table, and its the same when I play with our group, this kind of stuff is where the interesting bits can be, when built around the action of fighting. Its also why I switched to OSE/Basic. No skills. We adjudicate what happens as you describe what happens. If you stand there in the door, I read the above, and ask you what you want to do. Now, there are no skills on your sheet. What DO you do? [/QUOTE]
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