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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8721062" data-attributes="member: 67338">a int 8 not trained in investigation (or 8 wis not trained in perception don't make this a per/inv argument) has less a chance of finding it then an average commonor with a 10 stat, and I assume it is hidden so a commonor would need some luck. on the other hand a rogue with prof expertise and a high stat is going to find it easier... if he is 11th level and has all that he has +9 or 10 and min roll of 10 so that is 19 or 20 min...yes becuse (to me) this isn't about a players skill...remember I said I have a friend/player that is a stage magican?  Imagine him describing a search, when he knows how these tricks work. Now imagine someone that has no clue describing there search... one may bebut that doesn't mean there character is better then the other one at finding things</blockquote>