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"I make a perception check."
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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 8722064" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>I think I may not have made myself clear. I’m not saying a passive check is fundamentally the same as a rolled check. I’m saying that complaining because the DM ruled that your action should be resolved with a passive check instead of a rolled one is fundamentally the same as complaining because your DM rules that your action should be resolved with a Dex save instead of a Dex (Acrobatics) check. It is the DM’s role to determine how to resolve actions, and yes, that decision will necessarily mean that some of your character’s features won’t be applicable (and others will), depending on the mechanic.</p><p></p><p>Well they can’t exactly know if there’s something notable in the room without searching, at least not for sure. Though, with proper use of telegraphing, they should at least be able to make a reasonable educated guess. Sometimes they’ll be wrong and end up missing something noteworthy, or end up spending time searching for something that isn’t there. That’s how it goes sometimes. Time pressure, such as from regular rolls for complications, help keep the latter to a minimum.</p><p></p><p>That’s very strange to me. If you can find someone just by surveying the area they’re in with your eyes, they aren’t exactly very well hidden, are they? Like, I have to imagine you’ve played hide and seek at some point in your life, right? Even children playing games generally catch on that to hide successfully, you need to conceal yourself within or behind things, so that anyone looking for them will have to go to some manner of effort to find them. At least changing their position at an absolute minimum.</p><p></p><p>Literally the only thing I’ve been saying I don’t know is whether or not something is important. I know all kinds of information about what’s in the space. I don’t know which bits of that information will end up being important and which ones won’t. I just set up the parameters, it’s the players’ job to make what they will of them.</p><p></p><p>Their plan was to try and find the goblin by looking for it with their eyeballs, right? They did get to try that. I ruled that it would be resolved with a passive Wisdom (Perception) check.</p><p></p><p>Ok, well, I consider it progress with a setback, which in my book constitutes a consequence. Disagree with that evaluation if you like, but it’s how I rule on the matter.</p><p></p><p>Then it doesn’t seem to me like a monster-infested dungeon or treacherous wilderness is a place you would want to spend much time in.</p><p></p><p>They absolutely get a chance to make an ability check. First of all, they get to make a special kind of ability check (called a passive ability check), which doesn’t involve any dice rolls. Additionally, depending on their actions, they have a chance to find the trap without even needing to make an ability check, or they might have to make an ability check to determine if they find it or not. Or, they might fail to find it and end up triggering it, though that’s relatively unlikely unless they fail to pick up on the trap’s telegraph. And even in that case, I would first narrate what they observe in the moment they trigger the trap, and depending on their actions, they might avoid any negative effects of the trap without having to make a saving throw. Or, in the absolute worst case scenario, they’ll at least get to make a save to try and avoid it. They really have every opportunity to avoid being harmed by the trap; it all comes down to their decisions, and maybe some dice rolls as necessary to resolve any outstanding uncertainty.</p><p></p><p>They have plenty of opportunity to find and avoid it, as illuminated above. Yes, it is possible for them to fall into it, but only after passing several layers of contingency designed to produce outcomes that feel fair, even in the cases where they are undesirable.</p><p></p><p>All sorts of things happen, it just isn’t up to me how important they will end up being.</p><p></p><p>Yes, and based on my best judgment and understanding of the rules, I believe that a passive Wisdom (Perception) check is the most appropriate way to resolve that action.</p><p></p><p>Searching an entire room is not what I would consider reasonably specific. A whole room is rather more complex than a single wardrobe, so I’m going to need a bit more specificity to form an accurate mental picture of the action. I mean, take that hypothetical room with a trap that activates if you stand in the center of it. If I’m to assume you thoroughly search (by way of what you would call investigation) the entire room, I have to figure you would most likely move to the center of the room at <em>some</em> point in that process, right? But just imagine if I were to resolve the action accordingly:</p><p></p><p>“While searching the room, at some point you step on the trap in the center, and…”</p><p></p><p>“Wait! I didn’t say I stand in the center of the room, I just said I search it!”</p><p></p><p>And you know what? That would be a perfectly reasonable protest! Because “search the room” is not reasonably specific. I can’t really make a good estimation of whether or not you would step on the trap. So, I need the player to tell me what they <em>are</em> doing so I <em>can</em> make a good estimation of the outcome.</p><p></p><p>They don’t have to guess. If they have already established a part of their backstory that seems relevant, they can lean on that. If not, or if they want to establish a new element of their backstory, they can make one up. Those are perfectly valid options.</p><p></p><p>I would tell them it reminds them of something they saw in Tyr. That enables them to be the one to say “Thinking back to my time in Tyr, I try to remember where I recognize it from and what it is.” It’s like the the knowledge check equivalent of a telegraph.</p><p></p><p>I would probably say something along the lines of “it sounds like you want to rely on your memory from Tyr to try and identify the sigil, and you want to add your Arcana proficiency if a check is necessary. Do I have that right?” Assuming they responded in the affirmative, I would either give them the rest of the information or call for an Intelligence check, noting that they are welcome to add that Arcana proficiency. Which option I would go with is hard to say confidently from the available context. Depends on what has already been established about their backstory and how likely they would have been to have come across the sigil based on those established details. I suppose, since it was mentioned before that mentioning having lived in Tyr would have been an auto-success, I’ll stand by that and say yes, they would succeed without a roll.</p><p></p><p><img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="🤷♀️" title="Woman shrugging :woman_shrugging:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f937-2640.png" data-shortname=":woman_shrugging:" /> Nobody’s perfect. Sometimes we forget stuff. <em>C’est la vie</em>.</p><p></p><p>Ehh… nah, that’s not really my intent. I aim to enable on-the-fly character development, not to force characters’ backstories into a box.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 8722064, member: 6779196"] I think I may not have made myself clear. I’m not saying a passive check is fundamentally the same as a rolled check. I’m saying that complaining because the DM ruled that your action should be resolved with a passive check instead of a rolled one is fundamentally the same as complaining because your DM rules that your action should be resolved with a Dex save instead of a Dex (Acrobatics) check. It is the DM’s role to determine how to resolve actions, and yes, that decision will necessarily mean that some of your character’s features won’t be applicable (and others will), depending on the mechanic. Well they can’t exactly know if there’s something notable in the room without searching, at least not for sure. Though, with proper use of telegraphing, they should at least be able to make a reasonable educated guess. Sometimes they’ll be wrong and end up missing something noteworthy, or end up spending time searching for something that isn’t there. That’s how it goes sometimes. Time pressure, such as from regular rolls for complications, help keep the latter to a minimum. That’s very strange to me. If you can find someone just by surveying the area they’re in with your eyes, they aren’t exactly very well hidden, are they? Like, I have to imagine you’ve played hide and seek at some point in your life, right? Even children playing games generally catch on that to hide successfully, you need to conceal yourself within or behind things, so that anyone looking for them will have to go to some manner of effort to find them. At least changing their position at an absolute minimum. Literally the only thing I’ve been saying I don’t know is whether or not something is important. I know all kinds of information about what’s in the space. I don’t know which bits of that information will end up being important and which ones won’t. I just set up the parameters, it’s the players’ job to make what they will of them. Their plan was to try and find the goblin by looking for it with their eyeballs, right? They did get to try that. I ruled that it would be resolved with a passive Wisdom (Perception) check. Ok, well, I consider it progress with a setback, which in my book constitutes a consequence. Disagree with that evaluation if you like, but it’s how I rule on the matter. Then it doesn’t seem to me like a monster-infested dungeon or treacherous wilderness is a place you would want to spend much time in. They absolutely get a chance to make an ability check. First of all, they get to make a special kind of ability check (called a passive ability check), which doesn’t involve any dice rolls. Additionally, depending on their actions, they have a chance to find the trap without even needing to make an ability check, or they might have to make an ability check to determine if they find it or not. Or, they might fail to find it and end up triggering it, though that’s relatively unlikely unless they fail to pick up on the trap’s telegraph. And even in that case, I would first narrate what they observe in the moment they trigger the trap, and depending on their actions, they might avoid any negative effects of the trap without having to make a saving throw. Or, in the absolute worst case scenario, they’ll at least get to make a save to try and avoid it. They really have every opportunity to avoid being harmed by the trap; it all comes down to their decisions, and maybe some dice rolls as necessary to resolve any outstanding uncertainty. They have plenty of opportunity to find and avoid it, as illuminated above. Yes, it is possible for them to fall into it, but only after passing several layers of contingency designed to produce outcomes that feel fair, even in the cases where they are undesirable. All sorts of things happen, it just isn’t up to me how important they will end up being. Yes, and based on my best judgment and understanding of the rules, I believe that a passive Wisdom (Perception) check is the most appropriate way to resolve that action. Searching an entire room is not what I would consider reasonably specific. A whole room is rather more complex than a single wardrobe, so I’m going to need a bit more specificity to form an accurate mental picture of the action. I mean, take that hypothetical room with a trap that activates if you stand in the center of it. If I’m to assume you thoroughly search (by way of what you would call investigation) the entire room, I have to figure you would most likely move to the center of the room at [I]some[/I] point in that process, right? But just imagine if I were to resolve the action accordingly: “While searching the room, at some point you step on the trap in the center, and…” “Wait! I didn’t say I stand in the center of the room, I just said I search it!” And you know what? That would be a perfectly reasonable protest! Because “search the room” is not reasonably specific. I can’t really make a good estimation of whether or not you would step on the trap. So, I need the player to tell me what they [I]are[/I] doing so I [I]can[/I] make a good estimation of the outcome. They don’t have to guess. If they have already established a part of their backstory that seems relevant, they can lean on that. If not, or if they want to establish a new element of their backstory, they can make one up. Those are perfectly valid options. I would tell them it reminds them of something they saw in Tyr. That enables them to be the one to say “Thinking back to my time in Tyr, I try to remember where I recognize it from and what it is.” It’s like the the knowledge check equivalent of a telegraph. I would probably say something along the lines of “it sounds like you want to rely on your memory from Tyr to try and identify the sigil, and you want to add your Arcana proficiency if a check is necessary. Do I have that right?” Assuming they responded in the affirmative, I would either give them the rest of the information or call for an Intelligence check, noting that they are welcome to add that Arcana proficiency. Which option I would go with is hard to say confidently from the available context. Depends on what has already been established about their backstory and how likely they would have been to have come across the sigil based on those established details. I suppose, since it was mentioned before that mentioning having lived in Tyr would have been an auto-success, I’ll stand by that and say yes, they would succeed without a roll. 🤷♀️ Nobody’s perfect. Sometimes we forget stuff. [I]C’est la vie[/I]. Ehh… nah, that’s not really my intent. I aim to enable on-the-fly character development, not to force characters’ backstories into a box. [/QUOTE]
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