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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8723904" data-attributes="member: 67338">these are not based on the assumptions of my bad 2e and 3e games.  these are based on things said in this very thread... people who said that 2 different declarations can have automatic pass and automatic fail.  once you have that as the 3 options  auto pass/roll check/auto fail you face this issue that again will break my immersion. the idea of player skill trumping character skill...  now if you would ask "how do you calm the queen" and the player says he slaps her like what worked in that old movie the other night and you say 'well i doubt that will work but make your check'  then see how the roll goes... or if YOUR idea...lets say that the PC with high cha skills maybe even a feat or invocation to help cha skills, and he needs to get past the guards and you ask what he says, and I will let you pick... something YOU personally think is a dumb thing to say. Tell me what that player says and then how you react. the example of the player with a high cha skill wanting to calm down a crying queen and correct... it's like having a psychological report, an athletic assessment, and and a list of all of there skills and school grades.  it wont tell you everything, but it WILL tell you a lot. sometimes things can surprise you, and someone with weak muscles can lift that big boulder that one time, or sometimes a coward can gather some internal strength and stand up to the bully even though there psychological assessment says they wont. now some of this is the fickle d20, some of this is the player choice as it spills into it, and some of it is just the way even our world works let alone theres...again, then what happens when the player narrates something that his character should be good at, but he says something stupid or at least something you the DM thinks is stupid?remember those 'bad dms' all think they are just making a real world. I doubt they think they are being unreasonable (even if I do). Heck some of them even have regular groups that made it work for years.  okay so again I will ask this now based on this even though i did just above... You say you will allow a non face rerolls... but what about when the face says something dumb, and someone with no skill and no stat worth talking about says something you think would work perfectly how do YOU rule it...If I miss read you if the 8cha barbarian with 0 social skills can't just perfectly calm the queen or get the princes's help, or haggle down the price because they the player is good and gives a good argument/narration and the 20 cha skills and feat warlock can't automatically botch it by saying or narrating something you think is stupid then I will admit we actually are more alike and I did miss judge you... I await YOUR exampleeven if failure gets you arrested and you have only a 75% chance... the difference (IMO) between a detailed RP session of how it happened or skipping to the next part is entirely up to the players and the energy they bring. maybe there are 4 different things they plan on doing, and 2 of them seem boaring and 2 exciting... and for this I will use like to liketalk past guard, fight the pack of wolves, convince the prince, and fight the demons...if the players are not into talking past the guards but are really into convincing the prince I see no reason to not let them just roll flat for the one they don't want to and let them go into an entire RP session with the next (backed with rolls)if the players say "Look at level 4 we killed 3 wolves, we are level 15 and there are 5 wolves can we just hand wave this" I say sureby the sound of it (and please correct me if I am wrong) you would not let them because even though you know they will most assuredly win with bounded accuracy and pact tactics those wolves can do some damage before the big fight (or at least eat resources)  as such as I understand it you would make them play it as it has consequences. now I don't let them hand wave everything. Where an easy to light moderate threat I will let them either auto win or make a single roll each at a DC i make up to see if it cost them something... but no I wont let them end the big bad or a full threat that way (and that is entirely my opion... because I have TPKed on easy encounters and watched my party slam through deadly ones like coolaid man through a wall)it is... and as long as the players are interested I will 100% match there energy... but what if the players want to skip that and get to the next part because they (in this hypothetical all players agree) just don't care about the little problem and want to spend more time that night on the bigger one?</blockquote>

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