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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8725981" data-attributes="member: 67338">okay maybe we can try this again... just read what I write and not try to read some evil DM trickery into it please...I mean I find it exactly as enforceable as every other part of our hobby... if 1 player keeps doing it then it will make the game less fun for the rest of us... over time we will talk this out, and if we can't find someway to make it work we will split ways...what do you mean be enforceable?    One player arrest another for breaking a law? I mean this is still a game... one I play primarily with old friends. okay when I think metagaming I think useing out of character knowledge for ingame benefit (in theory there is a form where I guess you takeout of game knowledge to use in game to no benefit too)  I doubt anyone can ever make such things impossible... but again I am just thinking at the tables I play at we try to minimize it... throwing it in our faces by saying you see a book or a mini or a game matt or what ever and that is how you come to your choice is asking to make the table as a whole have less fun.... and is a form of trouble making (IMO)stop rewind... pretend I am a player at the table not the DM... I still have no control (not that I claimed to before) but I can still dislike something and try to minimize it.  You have some idea in your head that the DM has some massive authority over everyone at the table that I have not seen in years. I mean... okay different style I guess... we just want to keep our games in character, and we don't see it as fun if we play with full out of game knowledge.I have not used a screen since I started playing 4e, and right now we are using roll20... we don't hide things out of game because we trust each other not to use it in game. I can't imagine how much less fun I would have as both a player and a DM if I had to constantly worry about if I did something out of game.I don't understand... like how do I read someone's mind and heart and make sure they aren't lying to everyone? I don't. How do I enforce someone saying they don't want to play the way the rest of us want to... we talk. Like, this is a game of friends, we just talk about what we all want and don't want. What other enforcement is there? again... this si something the table would just talk about.  I don't think it's 'on you' or 'on them' just a discussion... one that can be held at anytime. 100% agree... this keeps circling.I am starting to imagine you think I 'enforce' something with a 'punishment' or something like that... but as a player or a DM how would I punish an adult? I don't think so. The contradictions come when instead of reading how I run the game (or play for that matter) you take 1 fact, and try to create an elaborate theory of everything based on it... and it seems like you almost are TRYING to paint the worst picture you can with that theory.I mean it lead to A LOT of surprise rounds back in the spy vs spy type game... I don't think (I can't read minds remember) that any of my players are thinking 'gee it would be bad if I answer no, even though it surprised me, so I better say yes'  now that isn't to say we don't roll stealth vs perception (that is hidden not suprise) but... as an example, if the players walk past my hiding rogue and OOG know there is a rogue there (mini on board) and I declair a suprise atttack and ask "Did you see that coming?" I expect the answer to be with in character thoughts... "yeah, we know this is an assassins guild even if I didn't know that one rogue was about to jump out I totally was ready thinking one could" compared to "No... we were just in the royal library... we don't expect someone to jump out and try to stab us"okay if someone doesn't know they did something, and I don't know they did it then they got away with doing it... if someone KNOWS they are doing it, lies, and I believe them... they also get away with it. I don't play with people I don't trust.I also don't expect perfect clarity all the time... I am okay with TRY... and I assume my friends that all say they agree are TRYING until something makes me think otherwise.again I never said that we had some strange magic were we could be in game only 100% I said we try... we minimize the out of game and maximize the in game... right the fun (IMO) is to try. to try to put yourself in the oger's POV, to imagine you are the Dragon, to imagine you are the Dragon SLayer...again... I never asked for some magic perfect thing... just we all try.to talk about the characters... to get into the mind of the characters.  No weird punishment or enforcement... to think like the characters.</blockquote>

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