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Message: <blockquote data-quote="muffin_of_chaos" data-source="post: 4230428" data-attributes="member: 65007">Doesn't seem to argue any points.The previous intuition of what alignment was was that it was prescriptive, whereas the new one is, in my guesstimation, meant to be seen as descriptive.  Evinced by the lack of powers that target specific alignments.Chaotic/good and lawful/evil, sure.  Chaotically good and lawfully evil, no.What?  We're talking about actions.  You don't choose to commit to an action in line with your personal convictions because it's in balance with external authority, if you did you're some sort of all-knowing robot.  If ultimately you will choose actions more in line with your personal convictions than external ideals, you'd be "Good."Granted.Now we get into the ignorance argument.  Your contention is that lawful evil societies are attempting to do good, and using evil methods to enforce the good.  If said society has no indication that they aren't right, how are they acting out of evil intent?  Much like a baby, pushing another baby down stairs because it doesn't understand that falling down the stairs will hurt the other baby.Like eating meat, maybe the action turns out to have evil consequences.  But it isn't an evil action.  It's merely ignorance.I think we have very different ideas of what an evil action is.  I believe that doing evil requires being conscious that you're doing evil.  Otherwise everything breaks down.It doesn't.Lawfully good actions don't require allegiance to society, but rather to goodness in general.  If this hypothetically hesitating LG person is stupid and thinks that slavery is a law that promotes good, then yeah, they can still be Lawful Good.But slavery is an evil practice.  Smart Lawful Good people would understand this and do everything in their power to change the laws.  Meanwhile, every other type of good person who had an interest (under the old system, Neutral or Chaotic Good) would be attempting to free the slaves.  That's because they're Good, not because they're Chaotic/Good.Best explained by simply Good.  They aren't random actions, they have a reason that has nothing to do with Chaos.See, the definition of Chaotic as Champions-Freedom doesn't really help because any Good person should be opposed to Evil.  A Lawful Good person shouldn't break down a door to stop horrible child abuse they know is happening, because they don't want to break someone else's property?  Of course they break down the door, even if it isn't "lawful."  So the pre-4E alignment could give no indication of the actions of the person, and is thus kind of worthless.Sounds a heck of a lot like old-style Neutral Good to me.  What a shocker that they seem to blend together so well.We can agree to disagree that Law and Chaos are intelligent elemental forces.  I think it's weird to assume that the randomness as an abstract concept has an agenda, but maybe I'm weird.The essence of law and chaos don't change based on their "proximity" to each other; you literally cannot change or oppose either, ever, because they aren't things, just inalterable ways the universe operates.The problem with slavery isn't that it's lawful, but that it's evil.</blockquote>

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