I need clarifications about cover and invisibility...

[Anubis]

Okay, I am having problems finding two things I KNOW have to have been dealt with by now.

1) In the 3.5 books, where is hitting the cover mentioned? By hitting the cover, I mean if a person is in your direct line of fire, giving your target cover, where are the rules that discuss your chances of hitting the cover instead of your target? I ASSUME that rule is unchanged from 3.0, but I'd like to see it with my own eyes . . .

2) When you become visibile when you attack or something, do you become visible before or after the attack? I ASSUME before, but the book isn't clear on this.

 

[Vurt]

1) See the sidebar (err, bottom-bar?) on p.24 of the 3.5 DMG. Just read that little bit last night.

2) I've always assumed you become visible after your first attack. i.e. An invisible rogue with BAB +6/+1 sneak attacking on a full attack would get the benefits of invisibility for his first attack, but not his second. I'm not sure what the consensus is on this however.

-- Vurt

 

[Anubis]

2) I've always assumed you become visible after your first attack. i.e. An invisible rogue with BAB +6/+1 sneak attacking on a full attack would get the benefits of invisibility for his first attack, but not his second. I'm not sure what the consensus is on this however.

Oh, that's not why I'm asking. I know the attacker gets the +2 invisible bonus for attacks. The reason I need to know is to adjudicate a readied action.

In a recent game, the Enchanter boss was invisible. The PCs knew he was there, they just didn't know where. The paladin readied an action to shoot the guy as soon as he became visible, the cleric readied an action to cast hold person on him as soon as he became visible, and the wizard readied an action to cast dispel magic on him as soon as he became visible to cancel a lesser globe of invulnerability.

The Enchanter became visible casting scorching ray at the rogue, who had just put his familiar down to dying. My question is, does he become visible as he is casting the spell, allowing the attack and two spells to go off and interrupt his own attack, or does the spell go off and THEN he become visible, preventing anything from disrupting the casting?

 

[Waldo]

I feel like the invisible Enchanter will get his spell off before the readied actions take places, especially since the readied actions are spells as well. There's no reason that the reaction spell could be faster than the original, if you can't see the opponent casting it.

Although, if the enchanter's spell has somatic components, I might allow my players to make Listen checks and cast their spells early, assuming the spell has an attack roll or area affect. Concealment from invisibility for attacks, but it would force concentration checks if successful and damaging.

There's an example in the DMG somewhere about a spell caster trying to cast a readied spell at a beholder by watching an eyestalk. I believe it uses Ability checks to see who reacts faster. You could use that model, too.

 

[drnuncheon]

In a recent game, the Enchanter boss was invisible. The PCs knew he was there, they just didn't know where....The Enchanter became visible casting scorching ray at the rogue, who had just put his familiar down to dying. My question is, does he become visible as he is casting the spell, allowing the attack and two spells to go off and interrupt his own attack, or does the spell go off and THEN he become visible, preventing anything from disrupting the casting?

Ah, scorching ray, that staple of Enchanters everywhere...

sorry.

Anyway, "the spell ends if the subject attacks any creature". So, it would end when he made the attack roll, not when he started casting. By the time he's making the attack roll, the casting is already finished. (This is easier to see in spells that are not necessarily used immediately, such as shocking grasp or other melee touch spells.)

However, I'd let them know that they heard the enchanter casting. If the readied action was 'as soon as he appears' then they're screwed, but if they said 'I'm going to shoot as soon as I know where he is', then the archer would have a chance to disrupt the spell (provided he made a decent Listen roll)

J

 

[Saeviomagy]

Well, I believe that a readied action (or an AoO) occurs before the action which triggered it.

Which means that technically, they attack him before he's visible, and thus suffer a 50% miss chance.

I'd give them a choice between attacking before or after he fires off the spell - if they attack before, he's still invisible. If they attack after, he's visible, but he got the spell off.

 

[HomerJS]

Id let a readied quicken spell hit him just as he was casting.

 

[kender]

In a recent game, the Enchanter boss was invisible. The PCs knew he was there, they just didn't know where. The paladin readied an action to shoot the guy as soon as he became visible, the cleric readied an action to cast hold person on him as soon as he became visible, and the wizard readied an action to cast dispel magic on him as soon as he became visible to cancel a lesser globe of invulnerability.

The Enchanter became visible casting scorching ray at the rogue, who had just put his familiar down to dying. My question is, does he become visible as he is casting the spell, allowing the attack and two spells to go off and interrupt his own attack, or does the spell go off and THEN he become visible, preventing anything from disrupting the casting?

I'd rule he becomes visible upon completing the spell, like an invisible attacker would become visible after the attack, not while striking.. because if invisibility had wore of while striking at the very moment of the strike (successful or not) he would be visible..
and as you all had readied the action at him becoming visible you could take your action after firing of the spell.

 

[Anubis]

Okay . . . Now . . . Is any of this actually clarified anywhere in the rules, or are we all just supposed to guess?

That all sounds plausible, as does the opposite . . . I only wish there were something official. I was hoping I'd missed something that someone could point me to?

 

[D+1]

Okay . . . Now . . . Is any of this actually clarified anywhere in the rules, or are we all just supposed to guess?

That all sounds plausible, as does the opposite . . . I only wish there were something official. I was hoping I'd missed something that someone could point me to?

How about p160 under "Ready" where it says the readied action occurs before the action that triggers it, that you interrupt the other character's activities, and that if he is then still capable he can complete what he began.
I suppose the part that bothers people is the fact that you can't see the invisible caster to react to what he's doing, but then if you're readying to shoot at the first person to come through a doorway you can't see through walls to know when or whether that's going to happen either. Still, there's room for abuse of this and at some point a DM can rule that you can't cover 360 degrees of a room with a readied attack for an invisible caster that might reveal himself. For the most part though, if you already know there's an invisible caster who is likely to reveal himself by casting (as in he was there just last round, etc.) there shouldn't be a special problem readying to attack him.
Keep in mind that Invisibility IS still a low-level spell and so should not be made more powerful an ability than it deserves to be.