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I think I miss flat-footed, talk me out of it?
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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6147964" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>Personally... I've always thought that the Coup de Grace action should be allowed to be used on Surprised individuals when used from the Hidden condition... not just on people suffering from the Unconscious condition.</p><p></p><p>As it stands now, an individual who is Unconscious but still has hit points can be Coup de Graced, and if the attack hits, they go immediately to 0 HP (and one already at 0 HP can be killed outright). I've always felt that needing the opponent to <em>already</em> be Unconscious for a Coup de Grace was eliminating that staple of combat, which was leaping up silently behind the unsuspecting guard and slitting their throat to take them out.</p><p></p><p>At the same time... allowing a Coup de Grace on someone who is <em>just</em> Surprised is too much... because it allows the attacker to do his full suite of actions during the first round (a move and an attack), which goes against the idea of a Coup de Grace. It makes it way too easy to do, plus it just doesn't feel right to me. You shouldn't be able to insta-knock out a guy by charging straight at him, or by casting a spell from in front of him, even if he was surprised by it (because even in those milliseconds of seeing the attacker before the blow hit, he should be able to move even the slightest bit to avoid an insta-knock out.) So allowing a Coup de Grace on JUST a Surprised individual would be out.</p><p></p><p>But if the defender is Surprised *and* the attacker is Hidden when he makes the attack? (A melee attack from within 5 feet, which means he had to sneak up on the individual in question?) At that point, I think I would like to see some allowance for allowing the Coup de Grace action to be used on that conscious individual to instantly knock out him (via the blow to the head or the slit throat or snapped neck or whatever).</p><p></p><p>And if that still seems to easy to do... then allow for the defender to make a saving throw (like a DC 10 Con save) if the Coup de Grace attack was successful. On a successful save, the attack is an automatic critical hit and does damage... on a failed save he's immediately knocked to 0 HP and falls unconscious just as he would have if he had been suffering from the Unconscious condition on a normal Coup de Grace.</p><p></p><p>So the entire process would be for the attacker to go into Stealth and become Hidden, sneak up to the individual in question via stealth, make an attack roll against him with Advantage to perform a Coup de Grace, and if the attack hits the defender makes a saving throw. DC 10 CON save that drives the defender immediately to 0 HP if the save was failed, and treated as an automatic critical hit if the save was made.</p><p></p><p>That seems to me to be the answer for my own "flat-footedness should mean more" issue.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 6147964, member: 7006"] Personally... I've always thought that the Coup de Grace action should be allowed to be used on Surprised individuals when used from the Hidden condition... not just on people suffering from the Unconscious condition. As it stands now, an individual who is Unconscious but still has hit points can be Coup de Graced, and if the attack hits, they go immediately to 0 HP (and one already at 0 HP can be killed outright). I've always felt that needing the opponent to [I]already[/I] be Unconscious for a Coup de Grace was eliminating that staple of combat, which was leaping up silently behind the unsuspecting guard and slitting their throat to take them out. At the same time... allowing a Coup de Grace on someone who is [I]just[/I] Surprised is too much... because it allows the attacker to do his full suite of actions during the first round (a move and an attack), which goes against the idea of a Coup de Grace. It makes it way too easy to do, plus it just doesn't feel right to me. You shouldn't be able to insta-knock out a guy by charging straight at him, or by casting a spell from in front of him, even if he was surprised by it (because even in those milliseconds of seeing the attacker before the blow hit, he should be able to move even the slightest bit to avoid an insta-knock out.) So allowing a Coup de Grace on JUST a Surprised individual would be out. But if the defender is Surprised *and* the attacker is Hidden when he makes the attack? (A melee attack from within 5 feet, which means he had to sneak up on the individual in question?) At that point, I think I would like to see some allowance for allowing the Coup de Grace action to be used on that conscious individual to instantly knock out him (via the blow to the head or the slit throat or snapped neck or whatever). And if that still seems to easy to do... then allow for the defender to make a saving throw (like a DC 10 Con save) if the Coup de Grace attack was successful. On a successful save, the attack is an automatic critical hit and does damage... on a failed save he's immediately knocked to 0 HP and falls unconscious just as he would have if he had been suffering from the Unconscious condition on a normal Coup de Grace. So the entire process would be for the attacker to go into Stealth and become Hidden, sneak up to the individual in question via stealth, make an attack roll against him with Advantage to perform a Coup de Grace, and if the attack hits the defender makes a saving throw. DC 10 CON save that drives the defender immediately to 0 HP if the save was failed, and treated as an automatic critical hit if the save was made. That seems to me to be the answer for my own "flat-footedness should mean more" issue. [/QUOTE]
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