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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PMárk" data-source="post: 6925652" data-attributes="member: 6804619">PF's success was due to a very specific historical situation. I agree that with 5e, they're facing hard times. Still, i hope they'll work out something. PF 2 could be as good as any other rpg. They has significant fanbase, if the product is good, it will sell. Probably not as much as the 1e with all the alienated 3e fans, bust still. i have hope. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I specifically said that WotC could do the core products, while 3rd parties could do the more niche products. I meant that some support for those niche lines is still more than nothing. Other smaller companies could manage multiple hardcovers in a year.I agreed that OP's publishing methods are indeed having visibility hindrances. That's why the new WW want to be back in stores, not just in gaming stores, but in average bookstores. I hope it'll work out. Still, it's not that simple that only established fans play the game and buying books. Go to the specific reddit pages, there's always new ST/new player topics. New gamers buy the 20th editions. Yes it doesn't have the wide cultural recognition than back in the day. Yes it doesn't make as big money as it did. Yes probably it's spreading more through word-of-mouth. However, the games are still alive, OP is well, the LARP scene is pretty much lively and Paradox deemed it wortwhile to purchase the whole IP. It's not dying out, it's just smaller now. Not so long ago we had a discussion on the OP forums and I was honestly suprised how many anecdotes were about new people coming in and how many groups playing the various lines, especially at universities. That's another thing: WoD games are more... I don't know, philosophical (or you could call that "angsty" or "edgy", whatever you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )? I could imagine that more people are interested in them at college campuses than in the average gaming shop. I don't want to be uppish here and I agree they're not as big with as many active fans as they were, but i doubt it's only as simple as only aging goths playing it. I just suspect that the average D&D gamer at the shops and  organized play is just not the main target audience of WoD games, it's just  different styles and expectations about what you want from the game and how you like to play. I also think D&D is also more friendly to kids (or it's more like WoD is absolutely not for kids). Said all that, I myself introduced a group not long ago, they're absolutely new to the game and loving it. Getting the books in pdf and from specific sites is not a problem with youths, in fact some of them prefer pdfs.As for content saturation: as i said earlier, I never had the problem, I just bought and read what I wanted and what interested me, but I understand the problem. I just never had the green marble wall thou shall not pass effect.Also, OP doesn't sell books the fans already have, they sell new books, with new, or complimentary content, both are good for beginners. The NWoD lines are currently in their second edition. PoD quality is depending on what type you buy. The premium heavyweight paper is as good as most gaming books and i think it is good to have cheeper options. Also OP recently working on the ebook versions of their products, so in the not so distant future there will be that new avenue. They just doesn't follow the traditional publishing and distributing model and it works for them Rich Thomas talked about it in various panels at GenCons and in other places. They don't want to be BIG, they want to make the rpg books they want and they can and it works.From the ICv2 link: "These do not take into account online sales, Kickstarter, direct sales, Amazon, or anything other than hobby retail sales"So, in fact ICv2 indeed doesn't take into account the online distribution channels and kickstarters, or really anything except the statements of retailers. That WoD games is the best placed in discussions among non D&D and derivative games and the 6th best after them among all, and taking the fact that the WoD-connected kickstarters are highly successful are in fact a sign to me that, while OP is not old-day's WW, the games are pretty much alive and well. Yes not being in shops is a problem and OP doesn't make nearly as much money as Wotc, clearly, but again, I'm not an employee of them. From a fan standpoint OP makes a lot more content, and good content and their games are played and alive. You just don't see it on D&D focused sites and in gaming shops because they don't distributing through them and don't have organized play. Look at the LARP scene, for that and you'll see that WoD is pretty dominating here. Indeed there's the catch. You just proved what I'm saying, that rpgs are better off in the hands of smaller, rpg-focused companies. They don't have to meet insane expectations from above, they could do the books they want and frequently do them in high quality.Again, money, money, money and it results in books not getting created, settings unused, novel line cancelled. Meanwhile smaller companies could run healthy gamelines, in some cases even a bunch of them. Sorry, I'm not interested in Hasbro's profit percentages, I'm interested in products I want to buy and enjoy. And I bet, based on the success of CoS that it'd be a great success. Maybe not the kind of "great" for the expectations of WotC, but among other rpg products, I believe it'd be successful and greatly so.But it works. It's going for a fairly long time at this point. WotC itself deemed wortwhile to make a contract and getting their own sub-site on it. Look, RPGs are a niche hobby. D&D has a resurgence now, but it won't last for ever. I don't expect an rpg company or online distributor to have dozens of full-time employees.Yes, but don't pretend that in these days the internet is an unreachable, obscure thing. I suspect, for a lot of people, a gaming shop is more like that than a reddit page, or kickstarter, probably even more when you aren't in an US metropolis. My opinon is that being in general bookshops is much more important. Having VtM, as well as D&D books in local bookshop lines and every small shop was HUGE back in the day. Now, there (in Hungary) i couldn't find either in bookshops, just in gaming shops and those are pretty rare. Also, you could do watch YT videos, read reviews, and read almost all of the contents online in certain cases. You could get a more clear picture about what you plan to buy than with flipping through it at a gaming shop.So to sum it up: does D&D could reach more people than smaller companies? Yes, absolutely. Does it have it's own significant drawbacks, being that big and having to answer also big expectations? IMO also yes, absolutely. They doesn't make certain books, because it's too niche and won't generate enough money. They won't outsource, because it won't generate enough money. They won't make novels, for the same reasons. I understand the decisions business-wise, but again I'm not their employee and I'm not a placeholder of Hasbro. I'm interested in the results and the result is not getting books I'd like to see.Back to the restaurant example, the Corner Burger certainly couldn't afford the advertisement and being in everywhere McD could. But they are making damn fine burgers and running well with their smaller costumer base.</blockquote>

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