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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8487617" data-attributes="member: 18">&quot;I don't want a no true Scotsman argument&quot;&quot;How narrowly do you define &quot;dungeon&quot;&quot;.Come on. You can't have it both ways.For goodness sake. You know you're wrong and playing with semantics for the sake of it. And you still haven't explained why we have to &quot;ignore&quot; post-apocalyptic - Apocalypse World and MYZ support my point, and if you think Apocalypse World isn't &quot;major&quot; and MYZ is, well, that's just funny.In the 1990s the number of competitors which had class/level was vanishingly small, and they were some of the less-successful competitors. The only major/successful one that lasted was RIFTS. There was Earthdawn in 1993 but I feel like it didn't really make much of an impact (though it was cool - and was basically the first attempt at what 3E was doing - genuinely &quot;updating&quot; D&amp;D).A very large minority and one that was still growing and indeed possibly an outright majority by the late '90s. 3E turned it around.That was over 10 years later, and I think he'd changed his philosophy by then, or Heinsoo was the dominant influence, because very little of 13th Age jives with 3E approaches.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8487617, member: 18"] "I don't want a no true Scotsman argument" "How narrowly do you define "dungeon"". Come on. You can't have it both ways. For goodness sake. You know you're wrong and playing with semantics for the sake of it. And you still haven't explained why we have to "ignore" post-apocalyptic - Apocalypse World and MYZ support my point, and if you think Apocalypse World isn't "major" and MYZ is, well, that's just funny. In the 1990s the number of competitors which had class/level was vanishingly small, and they were some of the less-successful competitors. The only major/successful one that lasted was RIFTS. There was Earthdawn in 1993 but I feel like it didn't really make much of an impact (though it was cool - and was basically the first attempt at what 3E was doing - genuinely "updating" D&D). A very large minority and one that was still growing and indeed possibly an outright majority by the late '90s. 3E turned it around. That was over 10 years later, and I think he'd changed his philosophy by then, or Heinsoo was the dominant influence, because very little of 13th Age jives with 3E approaches. [/QUOTE]

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