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I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 6357866" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>As I said up-thread, I'm not just talking about initial (or even only long-term) financial success, but creative and community success which <em>should </em>but doesn't always translate into financial success. As far as I can tell, 5E is showing signs of being a stronger success in the community than 4E was at the same point. A part of this, even the lion's share, is the PR and marketing screw-ups you mention, but I think it is also aspects of the game itself - that it is more palatable to a wider range of D&D players, especially the long-time people that were turned off by the "Warcrafty" qualities of 4E.</p><p></p><p>The reason I put so much emphasis on this "in-community" success is that even if D&D isn't the raging financial success WotC hopes it will be, a strong core community will keep the game alive and even thriving, if on a smaller scale. In other words, if the "core few hundred thousand" are happy, the game will be fine. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, I think you have it backwards. When I talk about the "Golden Age" of D&D I'm talking late 70s to mid-80s, beginning with the publication of AD&D starting in 1977 to ~1985, when Gygax was kicked out and the satanism and "MADD" stuff was peaking. In other words, all that stuff you mention ended up ending the Golden Age, not causing it. Perhaps at first it brought D&D more attention, but it had more of a negative effect than positive.</p><p></p><p>Anyhow, couple the controversies with the rise of the <em>real </em>Satan, the video game <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />, and the boom of the early 80s was doomed to be just a moment in time.</p><p></p><p>But I think the main reason that boom occurred was simply the newness and novelty of it. It was a fad, and it is very, very unlikely that we'll ever see the numbers rise to the legendary 20 million again. I think the best-case scenario is that we see a bump up to the 5-10 million range, which is similar to the hey-day of 3.X - perhaps a bit more if WotC can stretch the brand into movies and video games.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yet I think the recent popularity of Marvel was almost entirely brought on by the quality and success of the movies. The first <em>X-Men </em>movie showed that you could actually make a great comic book movie (other than Batman, the Keaton ones being pretty good, as well as the first couple campy-by-fun Superman movies). <em>Spiderman </em>and <em>X-Men 2 </em>took it up a notch further, and then the whole thing exploded with <em>Iron Man</em>(despite a brief hiccup with the <em>Fantastic Four </em>movies).</p><p></p><p>So I don't think it is rocket science or even requires some mastermind strategy. What it does require are good film-makers and screenwriters to take it on and make good movies. What a D&D movie would require is some nerdy but good film-maker like JJ Abramsto lead the project, <em>not </em>people like Ed Greenwood, RA Salvatore or Tracy Hickman.Those guys can consult, but let the movie people make the movies (George R.R. Martin is a rare instance of someone who knows both worlds, film-making and novel writing).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Given that I have absolutely no interest in video games, and even actively dislike them, that sounds like my worst nightmare! But it does seem like a missed opportunity that WotC hasn't really been able to capitalize on the brand in the video game market. But again, video games and tabletop RPGs compete with each other if only for "hobby time." </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is interesting because, in a way, the DMG is completely optional for 5E, but it also very crucial, especially for the long-time fans. I know that of all the core three it is the book I'm most looking forward to but, presumably, the least necessary to actually play the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yet, all interesting questions. Now I know this may ruffle some feathers, but one thing I'd like to see WotC do is somehow create a context in which producing new core rulebooks every 3-4 years is OK and accepted and even expected. Let the game be a living game. As much as it ruffled feathers in 2003, people overall embraced 3.5. I don't see why WotC couldn't institutionalize a revision every few years, without it completely remaking the game. So we have 5E in 2014, why not "5.2" in 2018, "5.4" in 2021, and "5.8" in 2025 before "6E: The Singularity Edition" arrives in 2030? </p><p></p><p>I jest, but the point is I think WotC could capitalize on revised versions of the core rulebooks without making all previous books incompatible.</p><p></p><p>Aside from core rulebooks, obviously the old "splat attack" approach doesn't really work on account of diminishing returns. But Paizo seems to have found a way around that by focusing on adventures, with a steady stream of setting books and a few high quality hardcover splats. But I think part of their success is that they limit the hardcovers to, hat, one per season? This makes them seem less like filler and more like quality products (although it sounds like people are already complaining of bloat).</p><p></p><p>But yeah, it should be interesting to see what WotC does after the initial roll-out.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 6357866, member: 59082"] As I said up-thread, I'm not just talking about initial (or even only long-term) financial success, but creative and community success which [I]should [/I]but doesn't always translate into financial success. As far as I can tell, 5E is showing signs of being a stronger success in the community than 4E was at the same point. A part of this, even the lion's share, is the PR and marketing screw-ups you mention, but I think it is also aspects of the game itself - that it is more palatable to a wider range of D&D players, especially the long-time people that were turned off by the "Warcrafty" qualities of 4E. The reason I put so much emphasis on this "in-community" success is that even if D&D isn't the raging financial success WotC hopes it will be, a strong core community will keep the game alive and even thriving, if on a smaller scale. In other words, if the "core few hundred thousand" are happy, the game will be fine. Actually, I think you have it backwards. When I talk about the "Golden Age" of D&D I'm talking late 70s to mid-80s, beginning with the publication of AD&D starting in 1977 to ~1985, when Gygax was kicked out and the satanism and "MADD" stuff was peaking. In other words, all that stuff you mention ended up ending the Golden Age, not causing it. Perhaps at first it brought D&D more attention, but it had more of a negative effect than positive. Anyhow, couple the controversies with the rise of the [I]real [/I]Satan, the video game :p, and the boom of the early 80s was doomed to be just a moment in time. But I think the main reason that boom occurred was simply the newness and novelty of it. It was a fad, and it is very, very unlikely that we'll ever see the numbers rise to the legendary 20 million again. I think the best-case scenario is that we see a bump up to the 5-10 million range, which is similar to the hey-day of 3.X - perhaps a bit more if WotC can stretch the brand into movies and video games. Yet I think the recent popularity of Marvel was almost entirely brought on by the quality and success of the movies. The first [I]X-Men [/I]movie showed that you could actually make a great comic book movie (other than Batman, the Keaton ones being pretty good, as well as the first couple campy-by-fun Superman movies). [I]Spiderman [/I]and [I]X-Men 2 [/I]took it up a notch further, and then the whole thing exploded with [I]Iron Man[/I](despite a brief hiccup with the [I]Fantastic Four [/I]movies). So I don't think it is rocket science or even requires some mastermind strategy. What it does require are good film-makers and screenwriters to take it on and make good movies. What a D&D movie would require is some nerdy but good film-maker like JJ Abramsto lead the project, [I]not [/I]people like Ed Greenwood, RA Salvatore or Tracy Hickman.Those guys can consult, but let the movie people make the movies (George R.R. Martin is a rare instance of someone who knows both worlds, film-making and novel writing). Given that I have absolutely no interest in video games, and even actively dislike them, that sounds like my worst nightmare! But it does seem like a missed opportunity that WotC hasn't really been able to capitalize on the brand in the video game market. But again, video games and tabletop RPGs compete with each other if only for "hobby time." This is interesting because, in a way, the DMG is completely optional for 5E, but it also very crucial, especially for the long-time fans. I know that of all the core three it is the book I'm most looking forward to but, presumably, the least necessary to actually play the game. Yet, all interesting questions. Now I know this may ruffle some feathers, but one thing I'd like to see WotC do is somehow create a context in which producing new core rulebooks every 3-4 years is OK and accepted and even expected. Let the game be a living game. As much as it ruffled feathers in 2003, people overall embraced 3.5. I don't see why WotC couldn't institutionalize a revision every few years, without it completely remaking the game. So we have 5E in 2014, why not "5.2" in 2018, "5.4" in 2021, and "5.8" in 2025 before "6E: The Singularity Edition" arrives in 2030? I jest, but the point is I think WotC could capitalize on revised versions of the core rulebooks without making all previous books incompatible. Aside from core rulebooks, obviously the old "splat attack" approach doesn't really work on account of diminishing returns. But Paizo seems to have found a way around that by focusing on adventures, with a steady stream of setting books and a few high quality hardcover splats. But I think part of their success is that they limit the hardcovers to, hat, one per season? This makes them seem less like filler and more like quality products (although it sounds like people are already complaining of bloat). But yeah, it should be interesting to see what WotC does after the initial roll-out. [/QUOTE]
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