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I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6361371" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>My response to this is similar to my response upthread to [MENTION=5788]me[/MENTION]curius - it's post-hoc reasoning.</p><p></p><p>Of course 4e is different from earlier versions of D&D. So is 5e. Even 2nd ed AD&D was different - in some respects (eg wizards) very different. But the claim of "totally different" is quite contentious. And for a lot of D&D players 4e was not "totally different" at all - it streamlined and perfected what D&D, as they had experienced it, aimed at.</p><p></p><p>Look at the commentary in Worlds & Monsters, for instance, and you can see tha 4e awas all about re-establishing, refining, streamlining and perfecting the story elements that have been central to D&D for the past 30-plus years.</p><p></p><p>There are two implications here. One is that 4e players wanted/want an <em>alternative</em> to D&D. This implication is, in my view, not correct. 4e players want to play D&D, and see 4e as a realisation of that desire.</p><p></p><p>For those who look at 4e and wonder <em>why</em> someone who wanted to play D&D would play <em>that game</em>, my answer is: look at the reasons why you prefer 3E or 5e's saving throw structure over the classic categories that Gygax invented. Whatever story you tell to yourself, so as to persuade yourself that the new saving throw structures are <em>improvements</em> rather than <em>alternatives</em> to D&D, you can be confident that most 4e players see 4e's changes to 3E in much the same way.</p><p></p><p>The second implication seems to be that people who play 4e, or who think 4e is well-designed, don't want to have fun. Maybe there are people out there playing 4e just to prove a point, but I haven't come across them. When I read posts from 4e players on these boards, I see them posting about the fun they are having playing an RPG. When I see them express concerns about the mechanical balance of 3E/PF or 5e, I see them either talking about issues that have affected their fun, or expressing fears for future burdens upon their fun.</p><p></p><p>In other words: it's fine to note that some people like 4e and others don't. But to label the first group as not really wanting to play D&D, or as favouring theory over fun, is frankly ridiculous.</p><p></p><p>********************</p><p></p><p>Let's put to one side that there is a fine tradition of "character as game piece" play in D&D (eg that is the basic way of playing Gygaxian D&D).</p><p></p><p>How do the 4e mechanics encourage, or imply, a greater separation between player and PC than (say) the 3E mechanics? In either game, playing your PC, you wonder about what you should do. You compare your knowledge of the ingame situation (as related to you by the GM) to your conception of what you (as your PC) are good and bad at, and you declare actions.</p><p></p><p>In my 4e group, I have players who think of their PCs primarily in 1st person, and players who think of their PCs primarily in 3rd person, just as I have had GMing any other system.</p><p></p><p>True. I am able to get it more easily out of 4e than any other version of D&D that I have played.</p><p></p><p>As far as combat is concerned, the reason for that is raised in the next quote:</p><p></p><p>I personally agree with this. That's why I ran Rolemaster rather than D&D for nearly 20 years.</p><p></p><p>Part of the appeal of 4e, for me, is that it's combat system keeps the traditional D&D "roll to hit, roll for damage" but overlays it with a system of positioning, movement, debuffs etc that make the combat engaging rather than just a process of rolling for attrition.</p><p></p><p>Absolutely.</p><p></p><p>When I ran Rolemaster for all that time, I was still "playing D&D", in the sense that my campaign worlds were D&D (Greyhawk and Kara-Tur), many of the modules I used were D&D (Slavers, D1, OA3, OA7, Freeport trilogy, Bastion of Broken Souls, etc), and the basic tropes of PC building (warriors and magicians who gradually grow in power) and emerging plotline (start small, end up saving the universe from evil forces) remained the classic D&D tropes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6361371, member: 42582"] My response to this is similar to my response upthread to [MENTION=5788]me[/MENTION]curius - it's post-hoc reasoning. Of course 4e is different from earlier versions of D&D. So is 5e. Even 2nd ed AD&D was different - in some respects (eg wizards) very different. But the claim of "totally different" is quite contentious. And for a lot of D&D players 4e was not "totally different" at all - it streamlined and perfected what D&D, as they had experienced it, aimed at. Look at the commentary in Worlds & Monsters, for instance, and you can see tha 4e awas all about re-establishing, refining, streamlining and perfecting the story elements that have been central to D&D for the past 30-plus years. There are two implications here. One is that 4e players wanted/want an [I]alternative[/I] to D&D. This implication is, in my view, not correct. 4e players want to play D&D, and see 4e as a realisation of that desire. For those who look at 4e and wonder [I]why[/I] someone who wanted to play D&D would play [I]that game[/I], my answer is: look at the reasons why you prefer 3E or 5e's saving throw structure over the classic categories that Gygax invented. Whatever story you tell to yourself, so as to persuade yourself that the new saving throw structures are [I]improvements[/I] rather than [I]alternatives[/I] to D&D, you can be confident that most 4e players see 4e's changes to 3E in much the same way. The second implication seems to be that people who play 4e, or who think 4e is well-designed, don't want to have fun. Maybe there are people out there playing 4e just to prove a point, but I haven't come across them. When I read posts from 4e players on these boards, I see them posting about the fun they are having playing an RPG. When I see them express concerns about the mechanical balance of 3E/PF or 5e, I see them either talking about issues that have affected their fun, or expressing fears for future burdens upon their fun. In other words: it's fine to note that some people like 4e and others don't. But to label the first group as not really wanting to play D&D, or as favouring theory over fun, is frankly ridiculous. ******************** Let's put to one side that there is a fine tradition of "character as game piece" play in D&D (eg that is the basic way of playing Gygaxian D&D). How do the 4e mechanics encourage, or imply, a greater separation between player and PC than (say) the 3E mechanics? In either game, playing your PC, you wonder about what you should do. You compare your knowledge of the ingame situation (as related to you by the GM) to your conception of what you (as your PC) are good and bad at, and you declare actions. In my 4e group, I have players who think of their PCs primarily in 1st person, and players who think of their PCs primarily in 3rd person, just as I have had GMing any other system. True. I am able to get it more easily out of 4e than any other version of D&D that I have played. As far as combat is concerned, the reason for that is raised in the next quote: I personally agree with this. That's why I ran Rolemaster rather than D&D for nearly 20 years. Part of the appeal of 4e, for me, is that it's combat system keeps the traditional D&D "roll to hit, roll for damage" but overlays it with a system of positioning, movement, debuffs etc that make the combat engaging rather than just a process of rolling for attrition. Absolutely. When I ran Rolemaster for all that time, I was still "playing D&D", in the sense that my campaign worlds were D&D (Greyhawk and Kara-Tur), many of the modules I used were D&D (Slavers, D1, OA3, OA7, Freeport trilogy, Bastion of Broken Souls, etc), and the basic tropes of PC building (warriors and magicians who gradually grow in power) and emerging plotline (start small, end up saving the universe from evil forces) remained the classic D&D tropes. [/QUOTE]
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