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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6368348" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I can't attest to it, but a buddy and a long-time player was knee-deep in various usenet groups back then and he has told me the same thing. Oh trust me, I'm familiar.  It just changed the paradigm such that it was unrecognizable from 1e crawls.  I guess if you squinted hard enough, the "back to" part of "back to the dungeon" didn't illicit a sour-face from you.I found that Create Wand (WoCLW especially, but a few others as well such as SM) and Scribe Scroll had two major impacts that dramatically affected classic dungeon crawl play:1)  The impact of the work-day attrition of HP and the rationing of spells to mitigate the losses incurred was basically gone.  With it went (a) all of the tension it naturally provoked and (b) the intended resource management mini-game.2)  An embarrassment of spell riches made it such that it was almost impossible not to have a load-out that could answer any and all barriers, impediments or potential problems.  God forbid you had two spellcasters in your party with CW and SS.  Difficult spell load-out decisions were central to trying to deal with potentially lethal conflicts.There were lots and lots and lots of other things (especially concerning the work day and the ability for spellcasters to reframe conflicts or circumvent obstacles basically at-will due to the synergy of spell power and slot proliferation), but concerning CW and SC, those were the biggies in terms of just outright changing the scope and threat of dungeon environments. That is close enough to what I was going for. Oh I don't think we're at some sort of RPGing nirvana or final state of evolution for the hobby.  Not even close.  4e itself was getting better and better and better.  It would have gotten better still if it were still formally supported and/or if it wasn't constrained by the OGL. I just think that we're at a fairly mature stage in the hobby where several discrete tastes are recognized and catered to by systems that produce specific play experiences. Agreed.While you give credit to 4e for its (uncelebrated in my estimation - I've spoken about this on more than one occasion on these boards) versatility (if you know the pressure points and are deft at applying pressure to them as GM, it can be a wonderful platform for lethal, attrition/resource-management gaming - including dungeon-crawling), I think you don't give 4e enough credit here for its precision in its "sweet-spot."  That sweet-spot is indeed a hybrid of Gamist and Narrativist interests.  Both are extremely rewarding by themselves and they marry quite well given the scene-based, high-octane action that 4e pushes play towards.  You've got all manner of Gamist interests that include resource efficiency/potency in encounter deployment and overall expenditure through the work-day.  At the scene-level for combat resolution, you've got several moving parts that need to be managed at once; terrain/stunts, maximizing group synergy and recognizing and minimizing bad guy synergy - whether you're team PC or team NPC.  At the scene-level for noncombat conflict resoltion, you've got a small bit of Gamist play involved; primarily when/how to spend your Secondary Skill(s) to augment Primary checks and when/how to spend Advantages.When it comes to the Narrativist angle, the system is rife.  Skill Challenges being the first and foremost aspect of Narrativist play here (especially the later maturation toward providing XP even for failures so the Gamist/Narrativist tension is relieved).  Abstract, noncombat conflict resolution is a staple of Story Now systems and 4e's foray into this arena is easily my favorite part of the system (and probably the primary reason, amongst many, why I won't be running 5e).  A formalized Minor and Major Quest system to guide play and advance PCs is akin to Milestones in MHRP and Bonds/Alignment XP in DW.  Edition warriors love to hate on the many Author and Director Stance powers spread through the system (even though they are easily, easily avoidable with alternative choices for every class at every level).  There are lots and lots of other examples (eg Themes, Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies both mechanically and thematically guiding play - not just thematically), both those are enough.  4e is not nearly given enough credit for its flexibility.  This is because a large number of folks just couldn't recognize the different pressure points inherent to the system, presumably because they were a bit different than what they were used to (due to different scheduling and the brilliant advent of HSes).  They didn't get how robust the system is to perturbing the encounter expectations (difficulty and number) and the Rest (Extended and Short) mechanics for overall changes to campaign pacing.  They didn't understand what an enormously versatile tool that the Disease Track is.  They didn't stick around long enough for DMG2 (which covered most of this) which means they didn't give it 10 months.  You probably have to play it a bit longer and more aggressively (and probably with a bit more of an open-mind) than many going in had.  Oh well I guess.  It is still there for me to play it, and play it I sure as hell will.  Notwithstanding that fact though, 4e does certainly does have a "4e-ishness".  If you don't even try to toggle its dials or fiddle with its widgets, it seems to me that its just about impossible (except due to either gross inability to grok or willful Pawn Stance play) to not produce an incredibly awesome, high-octane, dynamic, action-advenure game of badass fantasy heroes ensconced in mythical conflicts with titanic adversaries.</blockquote>

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