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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9062630" data-attributes="member: 6690965">This isn't new ground. No amount of fighting skill lets you fly and go to other planes and sooner or later you need to fly and go to other planes. Plus, martial utility even when we do provide it is nearly always reactive, instead of proactive. You get to roll skills to mitigate problems or handle them as you approach, and you get to use spells to change the situations you face in the first place, and the latter is the much more interesting game.That circular conversation aside can continue to disagree about precisely what utility is necessary for high level play and what archetypes get you there, but I think we both agree we currently live in the worst of all possible worlds. Frankly I just don't think it's worth the fight to try and salvage the Fighter, given the baggage already on display. You're never going to break the people who define it by what it can't do, so it's better to start fresh with some new martial archetypes that no one is invested in complaining about when you let them do things. Honestly, if we just had the other martial classes (give or take the Rogue, which is a whole other problem), and everyone was some variant of Barbarian, Ranger or Paladin, it would be so much easier to give them level appropriate tools, without constant comparison to the Fighter dragging them down. You can justify giving any of those characters wings, or wind stepping or super jumps at say, level 9 or 13 or whatever when they need them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9062630, member: 6690965"] This isn't new ground. No amount of fighting skill lets you fly and go to other planes and sooner or later you need to fly and go to other planes. Plus, martial utility even when we do provide it is nearly always reactive, instead of proactive. You get to roll skills to mitigate problems or handle them as you approach, and you get to use spells to change the situations you face in the first place, and the latter is the much more interesting game. That circular conversation aside can continue to disagree about precisely what utility is necessary for high level play and what archetypes get you there, but I think we both agree we currently live in the worst of all possible worlds. Frankly I just don't think it's worth the fight to try and salvage the Fighter, given the baggage already on display. You're never going to break the people who define it by what it can't do, so it's better to start fresh with some new martial archetypes that no one is invested in complaining about when you let them do things. Honestly, if we just had the other martial classes (give or take the Rogue, which is a whole other problem), and everyone was some variant of Barbarian, Ranger or Paladin, it would be so much easier to give them level appropriate tools, without constant comparison to the Fighter dragging them down. You can justify giving any of those characters wings, or wind stepping or super jumps at say, level 9 or 13 or whatever when they need them. [/QUOTE]

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