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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1911564" data-attributes="member: 3146">So I made a mistake about the paladin's code. You're still ducking the question. What acts are chaotic and what acts are lawful? For the paladin, who is required to help people unless they use the help for evil or chaotic ends, what, exactly are chaotic ends? You can come up with a few--anyone can. The question is whether or not the full list of chaotic ends is consistent.So, I repeat the questions:1. Which acts from the following list, if consistently followed would jeophardize a paladin's alignment as lawful good?2. Which acts, if intended by another would remove a paladin's obligation to help that person?WRT the law:  Breaking a positive law?  Breaking an unimportant law? (Could a paladin habitually jaywalk? or routinely run red lights when it looks like it's safe to do so?)  Breaking an important but unjust law?  Breaking an unjust law with intent to promote social change? (Civil disobedience).  Ignoring legal proceedure in order to get the desired results? (For instance, a judge who sees a guilty man about to be convicted on the basis of illegally obtained evidence or an innocent man about to be convicted by a legally constituted jury that simply decides wrongly)Breaking a natural law would generally fall under good/evil since that is the context that natural law theory addresses.WRT time and personal habits:  Being habitually late? (For whatever reason--some cultures tend to take a rather laid back view about time--if they're talking to someone and it makes them late, that's expected or even the more important person always keeps the less important person waiting. Could a paladin fully embody that portion of his culture and still be a paladin--in other words, is it chaotic?)  Being fundamentally disorganized?WRT politics  Supporting individual rights above the good of the group?  Supporting time honored traditions in the face of legal innovations?  Employing diversified, or bottom up rather than top down leadership strategies in an organization or army  Supporting regional distinctions in the face of homogenization?    How about in the face of an attemtp to universalize legal proceedings and laws?  How about simply pressing for social change of any kind? (By some Moorcock inspired defitions of chaos, all change is chaotic)WRT personal decision-making and behavior  Deciding marriage for himself rather than following the traditions of his society for arranged marriages or at least asking his parents for counsel and his to-be fiance's parents for permission first? (Although maybe you can dodge the question by requiring that all paladins remain chaste and celibate).   Deciding to follow the dictates of his conscience rather than the teachings of his superiors? (In other words, is it remotely conceivable for a paladin to act like an idealized Martin Luther?)  How about simply deciding to re-evaluate received authority in the light of new insight into revealed authority? (Is it even conceivable for a paladin to b the Erasmus of his era?)  Lying (It's separately prohibited in the paladin code, but whether or not it's chaotic would still matter for the purpose of the "using help for chaotic ends" exception).  How about lying in extremis? The classic example is a man in a fit of homocidal rage who comes to the paladin and asks where he left his weapons.Whether alignment is descriptive or prescriptive, it still needs to be definable, even if it isn't actually defined. Otherwise it's just nonsense. Good and evil don't have insurmountable difficulties in that regard. Law and Chaos appear to.</blockquote>

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