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Message: <blockquote data-quote="swrushing" data-source="post: 1914391" data-attributes="member: 14140"></blockquote>Wow! That seems like a really self-created problem you got there. By the time you finish with all those vectors and such, i can imagine you got yer'self into somethin' of a pickle.Me,I don't get all those vectors in a tizzy and just use the guidelines to figure out a character's alignment from his choices, agendas and methods over time and so far haven't ever had a real problem figuring out a characters alignment.go figure.have you considered for one moment that maybe you are overcomplicating this and trying to make rough guidelines into a precision calculation and that that may be part of the problem?I'm sorry, but is this bit of wisdom based on your assumption that i made only alignment changes to classes?if so, wrong.I made quite a few changes for all sorts of reasons. I just did not figure the "druids can use bows without offending the hunting god" et al to be particularly relevent to this discussion.and, me, i would tend to not use "broken" as the adjective, it implies a failure as opposed to a difference in preferences....  "not preferred" or "not quite as good a fit for my game" is much more accurate in describing the vast majority of the reasons for the changes i make.no, my argument is that some classes as presented in the PHb weren't the best fit for my game, so i changed them in a number of ways to improve that fit. these changes included some alignment restriction changes to those classes.I thought that was obvious, but i guess not.The vast majority of the changes i made to classes were to non-alignment stuff, so yeah, i guess i could follow your lead and come to conclusion that CLASSES were producing more "suspension of rules" and so forth.But, in fact, i don't reach that conclusion at all. Instead the conclusion i reach is that classes are supposed to be tweakable by the Gm to best fit his game and that this IS NOT A FLAW in the system but a strength. its a good design principle to recognize that ONE SIZE FITS ALL won't work for something as fundamental as CLASSES and to include recommendations and options for tweaking them... basically, making the core classes more or less guidelines and expect GMs to use them and manage them as best fits their games.I wonder if that "use these as guidelines, not scripts" notion could be applied elsewhere?I disbelieve that because i make a changes to classes i am concluding there is a problem with alignment. I made a change to allow druids to use bows, and that was NOT an indication that i thought the longbow stats were broken.I made a change to allow rangers to develop bowmanship instead of dual scimitars, and that was not an indication that i thought fual scimitars was broken.I made a change to allow lawful bards, and that was not an indication i thought lawful was broken.In all three  cases, it was an indication i thought the resulting classes were a better fit for my game.yes, as i stated, some classes have proscriptive clauses. Some ranger abilities do not function in some types of armor, for instance. it doesn't. it reflects your choices. See "painter" vs "potter" in previous posts. It is an adjective... not a mandate.If i say "Joe is on the fifth floor" because Joe has gone to the fifth floor, that doesn't proscribe Joe from then going to the third floor if he is so inclined. Same with alignment.no.No i argue that someone can be chaotic and afford people individual rights without needing the force of law behind them, as my examples was representative of. Whether the law affords you the right to choose who you marry, I can, were i chaotic, treat you that way. A right does not need the force of law to be believed in.I think there was this document which recognized "inalienable rights granted by the creator" or somesuch... which certainly did not seem to share the belief that these rights only exist because of the laws.However, if one limits the term rights to "rights guaranteed thru law" in their campaign, then perhaps the "individual rights" parts of chaotic  need tweaking for a better fit in their game.[/QUOTE]

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