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<blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 5916536" data-attributes="member: 51942">I mostly agree.&nbsp; However, I think the list could be shortened further;&nbsp; There's really no necessity to include &quot;Until the Start of the Affected creature's Next turn - It just makes things confusing.&nbsp; Make everything last until the end of a turn, and be done with it.&nbsp; The extra detail just doesn't add much, and I'm convinced you could rewrite effects to avoid that type of duration easily enough. I don't want to remember whether something was until turn start or end; there are so many different effects around that's just bound to be confusing. E.g, the 4e warden gets an extra defense boost when he takes a second wind in addition to the standard defense boost.&nbsp; However, one of them lasts until the start and the other until the end of his next turn.&nbsp; Do you know which is which?&nbsp; And how this interacts with delays and readied actions?&nbsp; Not pretty.You'll also need to include durations such as end of your current turn (in addition to end of your next turn) for many self-buffs.Personally, I'm also not a fan of save-ends effects, at least as they're sometimes used in 4e.&nbsp; There are just too many odd unintuitive tactical corner-cases; e.g. that you're immune to an effect if you're already affected by it (whereas with explicit durations, the longer effect takes precedence).&nbsp; Then there's the odd stacking and merging rules with things like save ends both and effects such as &quot;ongoing poison&quot;, &quot;slowed&quot;, &quot;slowed with ongoing poison&quot;, or &quot;ongoing poison and acid&quot;.&nbsp; The idea is neat, but it just doesn't work as far as I'm concerned.Couple the multitude of weird corner-cases surrounding save-ends effects with the extra tracking they impose and I'd just like to see em re-imagined. If no simpler, more natural implementation can be found, I'd prefer them to be left out rather than included as-is. The idea isn't bad, it's just too much of a hassle and sometimes jarring when the corner cases emerge.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="eamon, post: 5916536, member: 51942"] I mostly agree. However, I think the list could be shortened further; There's really no necessity to include "Until the[I] Start[/I] of the Affected creature's Next turn - It just makes things confusing. Make everything last until the end of a turn, and be done with it. The extra detail just doesn't add much, and I'm convinced you could rewrite effects to avoid that type of duration easily enough. I don't want to remember whether something was until turn start or end; there are so many different effects around that's just bound to be confusing. E.g, the 4e warden gets an extra defense boost when he takes a second wind in addition to the standard defense boost. However, one of them lasts until the start and the other until the end of his next turn. Do you know which is which? And how this interacts with delays and readied actions? Not pretty. You'll also need to include durations such as end of your current turn (in addition to end of your next turn) for many self-buffs. Personally, I'm also not a fan of save-ends effects, at least as they're sometimes used in 4e. There are just too many odd unintuitive tactical corner-cases; e.g. that you're immune to an effect if you're already affected by it (whereas with explicit durations, the longer effect takes precedence). Then there's the odd stacking and merging rules with things like save ends both and effects such as "ongoing poison", "slowed", "slowed with ongoing poison", or "ongoing poison and acid". The idea is neat, but it just doesn't work as far as I'm concerned. Couple the multitude of weird corner-cases surrounding save-ends effects with the extra tracking they impose and I'd just like to see em re-imagined. If no simpler, more natural implementation can be found, I'd prefer them to be left out rather than included as-is. The idea isn't bad, it's just too much of a hassle and sometimes jarring when the corner cases emerge. [/QUOTE]

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