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<blockquote data-quote="Dour-n-Taciturn" data-source="post: 5983920" data-attributes="member: 6692615">That is the essence of the matter isn't it.&nbsp; That last little jibe about not hurting the Rogue's feelings seems to reinforce such a notion of spell supremacy.&nbsp; So we give the Rogue a try (bless his/her little heart), and if they fail, we'll rely on the Wizard, since those effects are much more reliable.&nbsp; If the party fails to detect a secret door because Perception/mundane detection fails, then magic should augment that ability, not simply trump it with an auto-success.&nbsp; The notion that all treasures or secret areas are owed to the party, and that there should be a spell to facilitate that in most if not all cases, well that takes away from the flavor for me.UMD is essentially spell casting using a skill roll, so the Rogue now is functioning as a Wizard, Cleric, what-have-you.&nbsp; Again, it's not the class, it's the effect, and how exceptional durations may be over powered, at least without some cost significant to the caster.If casting a spell makes too much noise, cast it while you're away from the area (you have 24 hours of effect for the Invisibility example), or from your Rope Trick, or use Silent Spell, or then Dimension Door over, etc., etc.&nbsp; As for spell components or spell choice, the former at least for the examples argued, are relatively common, and the later can be achieved by character design (school specialization, domain access, and so on).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dour-n-Taciturn, post: 5983920, member: 6692615"] That is the essence of the matter isn't it. That last little jibe about not hurting the Rogue's feelings seems to reinforce such a notion of spell supremacy. So we give the Rogue a try (bless his/her little heart), and if they fail, we'll rely on the Wizard, since those effects are much more reliable. If the party fails to detect a secret door because Perception/mundane detection fails, then magic should augment that ability, not simply trump it with an auto-success. The notion that all treasures or secret areas are owed to the party, and that there should be a spell to facilitate that in most if not all cases, well that takes away from the flavor for me. UMD is essentially spell casting using a skill roll, so the Rogue now is functioning as a Wizard, Cleric, what-have-you. Again, it's not the class, it's the effect, and how exceptional durations may be over powered, at least without some cost significant to the caster. If casting a spell makes too much noise, cast it while you're away from the area (you have 24 hours of effect for the Invisibility example), or from your Rope Trick, or use Silent Spell, or then Dimension Door over, etc., etc. As for spell components or spell choice, the former at least for the examples argued, are relatively common, and the later can be achieved by character design (school specialization, domain access, and so on). [/QUOTE]

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