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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5984473" data-attributes="member: 87792">And I consider that the type of characters people choose to play should also have an impact on the game.&nbsp; If the PCs actually wanted a stealth based game rather than a 'don't be riduculously noisy' game then I'd expect at least one of them to play someone able to pick locks.&nbsp;In 1e (pre-UA), the fighter and the rogue were both entirely dispensible.&nbsp; Clerics were better on the battle line than fighters - they could heal as well.&nbsp;&nbsp; And the thief's numbers were terrible.&nbsp;&nbsp; Wizard and cleric on the other hand weren't.&nbsp; UA and 2e at least brought the fighter in to play - and in low level play you could replace the wizard with a bard.&nbsp;3.X has its tier list.&nbsp; So it depends how hard you are playing what's removable.&nbsp;In 4e I can't think of one non-removable class.&nbsp; The biggest party hole you come up with is no ritual caster.&nbsp; I've DM'd a party with neither defender nor leader, and it was great.&nbsp; A scout, a vampire, a thief, and a hunter (for those playing at home that's three dex-based strikers and a dex based controller who is almost as strikeresque as it is a controller) and every single PC had a stealth skill through the roof*.&nbsp; Missing classes: All the core four, any leader, and any defender.&nbsp;* Level 8 and I don't think one of them had a skill of less than +15.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5984473, member: 87792"] And I consider that the type of characters people choose to play should also have an impact on the game. If the PCs actually wanted a stealth based game rather than a 'don't be riduculously noisy' game then I'd expect at least one of them to play someone able to pick locks. In 1e (pre-UA), the fighter and the rogue were both entirely dispensible. Clerics were better on the battle line than fighters - they could heal as well. And the thief's numbers were terrible. Wizard and cleric on the other hand weren't. UA and 2e at least brought the fighter in to play - and in low level play you could replace the wizard with a bard. 3.X has its tier list. So it depends how hard you are playing what's removable. In 4e I can't think of one non-removable class. The biggest party hole you come up with is no ritual caster. I've DM'd a party with neither defender nor leader, and it was great. A scout, a vampire, a thief, and a hunter (for those playing at home that's three dex-based strikers and a dex based controller who is almost as strikeresque as it is a controller) and every single PC had a stealth skill through the roof*. Missing classes: All the core four, any leader, and any defender. * Level 8 and I don't think one of them had a skill of less than +15. [/QUOTE]

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