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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5986296" data-attributes="member: 22779">What saving throw is there for Knock?&nbsp; Monster Summoning?&nbsp; Etc.What I cannot believe is that after all the analysis, and we're talking years of analysis and evidence being presented, we STILL have people standing around with their fingers in their ears, eyes closed and shouting that no problems exist.What evidence would you need Forever Slayer to show that wizards can easily overshadow rogues/thieves?&nbsp; What would it take?&nbsp; Does someone at your table actually have to do it before you'll accept that it happens (and sometimes happens often) at other people's tables?We're not talking about obscure options from some twenty year old splatbook.&nbsp; These are basic spells that have ALWAYS existed in the game.&nbsp; Why do you think, in the 1e DMG, there is a lengthy essay on how to deal with invisible PC's, but absolutely nothing said about hiding PC's?&nbsp; Why do you think that in high level modules, casters get absolutely hosed, spells removed from the game right, left and center, but the thief/rogue is never even considered?Put it another way.&nbsp; If thieves were equivalent to other classes, why did they need HALF as much xp to progress in levels?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5986296, member: 22779"] What saving throw is there for Knock? Monster Summoning? Etc. What I cannot believe is that after all the analysis, and we're talking years of analysis and evidence being presented, we STILL have people standing around with their fingers in their ears, eyes closed and shouting that no problems exist. What evidence would you need Forever Slayer to show that wizards can easily overshadow rogues/thieves? What would it take? Does someone at your table actually have to do it before you'll accept that it happens (and sometimes happens often) at other people's tables? We're not talking about obscure options from some twenty year old splatbook. These are basic spells that have ALWAYS existed in the game. Why do you think, in the 1e DMG, there is a lengthy essay on how to deal with invisible PC's, but absolutely nothing said about hiding PC's? Why do you think that in high level modules, casters get absolutely hosed, spells removed from the game right, left and center, but the thief/rogue is never even considered? Put it another way. If thieves were equivalent to other classes, why did they need HALF as much xp to progress in levels? [/QUOTE]

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